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Author Topic:   Motion in an expanding space
Ben!
Member (Idle past 1428 days)
Posts: 1161
From: Hayward, CA
Joined: 10-14-2004


Message 15 of 40 (181606)
01-29-2005 7:36 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Sylas
01-28-2005 6:03 PM


Take two particles, and hold them at exactly the same (large) separation, while space is expanding. For simplicity, let particle "A" be at rest in the frame of background radiation, and let particle "B" be one MegaParsec away. Assume that these two particles are out in deep space, in one of the great voids. That is, there are no other galaxies anywhere near these particles to push or pull them with local gravitational attractions.
OK.
Space between these two particles is expanding at 70 new kilometers every second. To remain at the same separation distance, therefore, particle "B" must have a local motion of 70 km/sec towards particle "A".
What is a "local motion"? What reference frame defines "local motion" ? I don't get this at all. It doesn't fit with how I think about space. Would you mind to help me understand?
That is, the particles have a local velocity towards each other that exactly matches and cancels out the rate at which space is stretching between them.
I still don't get it. What is "local velocity" ? How is that different from "velocity" ? I can understand what it means for the two particles to be in the same inertial reference frame... but I think I'm missing something basic here.
Now release the particles, so that they are in free fall. Will the distance between them increase, or decrease, or stay the same?
Well... really, I have no frickin' idea. But, since there's no forces on either particle, and since the particles have been put in inertail motions that maintain the distance between them, then I'd have to say that nothing changes when you release them. Of course this answer was greatly assisted by reading the other posts in this thread
By the way Sylas, thanks for opening this thread. I'll look forward to your comments.
Ben

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Sylas, posted 01-28-2005 6:03 PM Sylas has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Sylas, posted 01-29-2005 8:45 AM Ben! has not replied

  
Ben!
Member (Idle past 1428 days)
Posts: 1161
From: Hayward, CA
Joined: 10-14-2004


Message 16 of 40 (181611)
01-29-2005 7:59 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Sylas
01-28-2005 7:37 PM


Sylas,
I don't really get it.
The rate of expansion 70 km/sec/MPsec is called the "Hubble constant". The term is misleading, because the Hubble constant is not in fact a constant at all! It is a constant value through all space, but it changes with time.
Got it. No problem. But.. WHY does this constant change with time?
But what happens as time passes? In a simple zero density case, a galaxy at 1 MegaParsec distance, which is receding with the Hubble flow at 70 km/sec, will continue to recede at that same rate, even as it moves further away. So, taking a MegaParsec as 3*10^19 km, then after 4.3*10^17 (BC:changed) seconds, the galaxy will be 2 MegaParsecs away. This is about 14 billion years.
(Does than number sound familiar? It should! It is about the age of the universe, since the time when galaxies are at zero separation distance.)
OK... what does this mean? Does it mean that space has expanded to 1Mps since the big bang? I guess not, since the Hubble constant is changing in time. So, what does this mean?
At that time, the Hubble flow rate will be only 35 km/sec/MPsec. In other words, the flow rate is inversely proportional to age.
I've no idea how you got here. Clearly the "Hubble flow rate" is half of what it was as time doubled. But I have no understanding of the mechanism of WHY this would be.
Now there are a few more quibbles. A "cosmological constant" tends to maintain the Hubble flow at a fixed rate. As galaxies move further away, therefore, the rate of recession increases. In the extreme case this is what happens in so-called "inflation". If we have an inflationary expansion, so that the Hubble constant remains at 70 km/sec/MPsec indefinitely, then your answer is correct. (I think! I've only been learning about this myself quite recently.)
Whoa! Crazy! Now I'm really lost! But tell me this--if this "cosmological constant" didn't exist, and the "Hubble flow rate" was changing over time, then we WOULD see space "pull on" the particles--i.e. the particles would be seen to "accelerate" (i.e. change their relative velocity) without having any force applied to them.
On the other hand, gravity from mass in the universe tends to retard expansion.
Back in the crap hole. What?? How can gravity retard the expansion of space?? I can understand how it retards the expansion of mass, but .. space? How the heck does that work?
At present, there seems to be a small cosmological constant, but not enough for inflation, and also a small mass density which acts to retard expansion rates. So to a first approximation, we can just use the zero density model. Assume that the expansion of space is such that objects moving with the flow of expansion continue to recede at the same velocity as they move further away.
Shoot, lost again. I thought you said our universe was an inflationary universe (due to the cosmological constant). But then you say the cosmological constant is not enough for inflation. Which is it? Am I misreading?
Sorry for all the questions. i'll appreciate any comment that you make. I'll stop here for now, so that I avoid dousing you with further questions (i.e. the questions are raining down on you?)
Thanks,
Ben

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Sylas, posted 01-28-2005 7:37 PM Sylas has not replied

  
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