question from ignorance

quote:

---

Originally posted by forgiven:
i understand the analogy... i guess the problem is what i wrote above... what's the prevailing wisdom, is it that the singularity contained all the above or is it that the above "things" came into being only by virtue of the bb? thx

---

At a singularity, some of the values in our equations reach zero. When that happens, anything goes. Causality doesn't work. This is what we were talking about when you first started posting here.Now, all of the "things" you mention are in a space (for lack of a better word) of size zero. It is a bit of a netherworld really. "Things" occupying no space makes no sense. Space occupying no space makes even less sense, but there you have it.To answer the question, everything you know came to be at the BB. What existed prior to that, if anything, is beyond current human knowledge.------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

quote:

---

Originally posted by forgiven:
ok, i'm getting there thx...

---

I aim to please.

quote:

---

am i correct or not in assuming that this "size zero" is known to be so?

---

If you mean to ask if this is observable, then the anwser is "no." In fact, there is a brief period of time between now and then when there wasn't any light-- the proper subatomic particles had not yet formed. Since all we have to go on is light, we can't see further back than that point. If I am not mistaken there is some effort being made to peer beyond that point using gravitational wave detectors. I could be confused on that though.

quote:

---

iow i guess i'm asking how we know the "size" of the singularity...

---

Its observation and extrapolation. The universe is expanding very quickly in all directions. Throw that in reverse and you end up with everything in one place. Then consider what is known about gravity and about atomic nuclei. Gravity increases with mass and distance from the center. The more massive something is the stronger the gravity. Also consider that the gravitational force increases with the square of the distance from the center. The more dense an object is the closer your are to the center, hence the gravitational force is stronger. As the universe shrinks (our film being in reverse) these forces crush the atomic nuclei, then the subatomic particles. Size continues to decrease, gravity continues to increase. Size goes to zero. Gravity goes to ∞.

quote:

---

if this is so, and i'm not saying it is, then whatever exists now (in its present form with its present shape, size, etc etc) existed before bb

---

At best, all you'd have is infinite energy, certainly not everything "in its present form with its present shape, size, etc etc."------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

quote:

---

Originally posted by forgiven:
ok, i guess this is the part that still has me confused...

---

That's because we are really talking about four (or more) dimensional space, not the three dimensional space our brains have evolved to handle.

quote:

---

if the universe for some reason stopped expanding and started contracting, it just seems that it would eventually reach "wherever" the singularity was...

---

There is no 'where the singularity was.' Everything, in a sense, is that singularity.

quote:

---

everything in one place" as you said... that means (to my mind) everything left one place at the same speed and will return in the same way, for (if no other reasons) the gravitational reasons you gave..

---

Lets go back the the balloon analogy. Imagine yourself on the surface of a balloon. Imagine several other points on the surface of that balloon. Now deflate the balloon. All of those points close toward each other. Reinflate the balloon. All of those points move away from one another. If you deflated the balloon down to a point, all of the points would be at the same place but not one of those (previously discussed points, one of which you are standing upon) points would be the center point. There is no center to the expansion any more than there is a center point on the surface of a sphere.------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

quote:

---

Originally posted by forgiven:
no, i guess a better way to describe what i was thinking is, i had pictured all that is exactly *as* it is, except compacted to an infintesimal magnitude...

---

Nope. As you approach the singularity everything gets squashed. Going backwards as if watching a massive star collapse, first you'd get a big ball of normal matter, just very dense. The molecular bonds would break, then, as density increases you'd have atomic bounds crack. The atom itself will collapse. The little electrons(-) are pressed into the protons(+) leaving only neutrons-- a neutron star, one gigantic atomic nucleas. If mass is great enough these neutrons too will break and the star collapses in on itself. You've got a massive gravitational field pulling in and no longer anything pushing out. Everything we know is gone, even space and time. Very very cool ------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

quote:

---

Originally posted by forgiven:
ahhhh.. kind of like a scroll rolling up on itself?

---

I don't know what you are trying to say.------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com