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Author | Topic: Joralex: Tentativity or Dogmatism? | |||||||||||||
John Inactive Member |
quote: There really is only one ToE...
quote: ... and that is it!
quote: One step at a time. Start with a population of animals and note that with each generation the genes of the individuals vary slightly. Then note that more distantly related individuals have more variation between their genes. This gives you a mechanism by which you can determine the relationships between organisms even if you haven't observed them actually banging their various gongs. Couple this with timelines established via observations of mutation rates and you have a timeline of life on earth. Now, take the indisputable ( I hope ) observation that genes effect the way the body-- most notably for our purposes, the skeleton-- looks and you have a means of corroborating and expanding the above timeline and relationship chart.
quote: All but the last bit is not evolution. Only creationists insist on calling this whole sequence the "evolutionary paradigm." When you accept the idea of gravity, as I assume you do, do you also accept the "gravitational paradigm" which includes relativity which in turn implies the Big Bang? This tactic does nothing but muddy the water. It is diversionary.
quote: Yes, and neither is any modern physicist unless you redefine "materialism" to account for the weird happening of quantum physics and matter/energy equivalencies. But this redefinition would be preposterous to the folks who traditionally went by the title of materialist.
quote: I just happen to think evolution fits the data best.
quote: Typical-- cry foul and avoid the issue. Does one need an intellectually defensible position against an absurd idea?
quote: Appeal to authority.
quote: ... attempt to defend creationism intellectually.
quote: Where is that defense? I've been looking for it for quite some time.
quote: So you avoid the issue by stating that there is a answer but you aren't going to share it? The point, btw, is that there does not have to be an answer to every question. That is, we don't have everything figured out. This doesn't invalidate what we do have, tentatively, figured out.
quote: This is where we part. You appear content to just make up something to shove into those gaps. I am not so content. I'd like to have some REASON to place one item rather than another into the various gaps.
quote: With inferences from evidence, not with whatever-you-want-to-make-up.
quote: Discounting experiment does not help your case. Abiogenesis is an unsolved puzzled. We don't know in detail how a lot of things work. That is why there are scientists. Does, in other arenas, an unanswered question throw doubt on the whole field?
quote: Metaphysics????? It is common sense. It obviously did get started or we wouldn't be here. Or do you deny that animals reproduce and pass along altered DNA each time? The difference is that you want to say that God started it, and this without evidence-- so far at least. I would rather wait for some REASON to believe one story over another. And in the meantime, restrict myself to reasoning from the evidence we have. ------------------
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John Inactive Member |
I'm bumping my Post #2
Joralex? Are you still out there? ------------------
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John Inactive Member |
Lets look at your encyclopedia citation.
World Book 2001 Encyclopedia writes: "Metaphysics is concerned with the basic nature of reality. Its aim is to give a systematic account of the world and the principles that govern it. In contrast to the natural sciences, which study specific features of the world, metaphysics is a more general investigation into the fundamental features of what exists." Sentence 1: The ToE is in no way shape or form concerned with the basic nature of reality. You will not find evolutionary biologists, in an official capacity, discussing whether nature is fundamentally mind or matter, for example. Sentence 3: This is exactly what evolution is-- the study of a specific feature of the natural world. And thus, by your own reference, evolution is a natural science, not a metaphysic. Science, all of science, deals with observable phenomena -- allowing for the extension of our senses via technology. The METAPHYSIC invloved is very nearly universally refered to as empiricism. What I can't figure out is why you want to ditch this term in favor of your own very diversionary "metaphysic of evolution." ------------------
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John Inactive Member |
quote: That puzzlement, frankly, is due to the fact that the ME is something you have made up, though many creationists play a similar game.
quote: It is you who are playing-- with definitions mostly. BTW, I can't shake the feeling that you are avoiding my posts. As evidence, I point out that you repeat your World Book 2001 Encyclopedia argument without responding to my comments concerning it.
quote: What exactly about the ToE fulfills this condition? ( Atheism does not imply or require materialism, btw. )
quote: This is just simply wrong. There is no other way to put. Evolution does not deal with change in a non-random direction. This a creationist straw-man.
quote: Most of it isn't evolution, and for that matter it isn't even 'metaphysics.' It is physics-- ie. dealing with the natural world, or dealing with observable phenomena. The METAPHYSIC involved is empiricism, not the structures built upon that foundation. Why not attack that instead of arguing this convoluted nonsense? You are calling the branches the tree, Joralex.
quote: Why not call the ME 'the completely materialistic, naturalistic worldview of the universe' instead of tagging your diversionary and misleading label on it? There are already perfectly good terms, which have been in use for longer than you have been alive I'll wager, for everything you state, yet you insist upon your redefinitions? Why? I makes no sense. The only answer I can think of is that this is one big semantic game designed to confused the issues. It is a matter of scope. Evolution is a theory accounting for the changes in life-forms through time. Period. It is not the study of the fundamental components of reality. The ToE co-opts, or assumes-- as does all science-- a rather fuzzy form of empiricism. The ToE is a child of empiricism, not its parent or its equivalent. Put another way, evolution is based upon observation, like all science. This ought to at once tell you that it is not a metaphysic. The metaphysical structure UNDER which it operates is blatantly stated at the onset. Why is this difficult to grasp? ------------------
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John Inactive Member |
quote: ... very similar to the way Bishop Berkeley considered things, at least in respect to the world-- Berkeley thought the world was mind-- being entirely dependent upon God, but otherwise functioning naturalistically. Just a note. ------------------
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John Inactive Member |
Well... I've got several posts now dangling. Whatever am I to make of that?
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John Inactive Member |
quote: Do you intend to address any of my direct responses to this claim? This subject came up as far back as Post #2, but #36 and #40 more directly address it. I'd hate to think that you are not responding because you can't respond. Of course, you aren't addressing anyone else either, just repeating yourself and ignoring the objections we've posted.
EvC Forum: Joralex: Tentativity or Dogmatism? EvC Forum: Joralex: Tentativity or Dogmatism? EvC Forum: Joralex: Tentativity or Dogmatism? ------------------
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