Should Evolution and Creation be Taught in School?

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how does it do that? it just shows that quibbling over definitions is what you have. oh its a doctrine so its wrong! wow nice arguement - thats all you have?

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No, that's all I needed with you there.

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You seem to have missed the point here, whisper. You called evolution a 'doctrine', and then cited the dictionary definition which defines a doctrine as 'something taught'. It was pointed out that this is an archaic usage of the word, which you don't seem concerned about. And that's fine. But if you want to use that archaic usage of the word, then EVERYTHING taught is a doctrine. Math. Reading. History. All doctrines. And in that case, saying that evolution is a doctrine says nothing at all except that it's something that is taught - which it is, obviously.But you want to have your cake and eat it too. You want to call evolution a doctrine, implying religious dogma. But then you justify that by citing that doctrine can mean 'something taught'. But that's not how you're using the word when you refer to evolution as a doctrine - and if it IS how you're using the word, then it's useless to point out, because EVERYTHING taught is a doctrine.

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The majority believed in Jesus, the evidence is not murky there. Clear as daylight.

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The majority of whom? The founding fathers? If so, that evidence is hardly 'clear as daylight'. Many of the founding fathers were deists, and there is much contention about which of them were Christians, as you no doubt know.

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As for religion we want to get away from, we still want that,

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There is nothing in the Constitution or any of the founding documents that religion is something anyone wants to 'get away from'. They merely want it kept out of government. Certainly, you don't want to get away from religion - your Christianity is obviously very important to you, and the last thing you want to do is get away from it.

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including evolution!

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Evolution is not a religion. It is an observed fact. Evolutionary theory is also not a religion. It is a scientific theory.

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you need to go read a history book then, the majority is irrelevent in this country ....

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Ha. You are a silly scream.

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This flippant response doesn't address the point raised. In many ways, the majority is, indeed, irrelevant. If the majority decided tomorrow that (for example) black people shouldn't have the vote, that majority wouldn't get their way because it would be unconstitutional. That was the point being made - that the constitution (and relevant governmental and judicial procedures) prevents the 'tyranny of the majority'. Certain rights of the minority are protected so that they can't be removed even if the majority wants to do so. In that regard, the majority is, indeed, irrelevant.

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OK, and so? If you want to call creation a doctrine and not evolution that went on before creation a doctrine, it is wrong. Great. My point exactly.

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I'm confused. What evolution went on before creation? Are you talking about the idea that evolution happend and then God stepped in and directly created man? In any case, evolution is a doctrine in the same sense that math and history is a doctrine - it's something taught. Creation is a doctrine in this sense, but it's also a doctrine in the more usual sense - a religious doctrine. Evolution isn't.

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If you lump evolution in there, I lump creation. It is a two way street, not just your way.

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Lump it in where? As something taught? Sure (as above), creation is a doctrine in the sense that it's 'something taught', but it's also a religious doctrine, which evolution isn't. By calling evolution a doctrine, you were trying to imply a degree of religiousity to evolution, which isn't correct.

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Here is a bible definition that should clear it all up for you.

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"1. In a general sense, whatever is taught. Hence, a principle or position in any science; whatever is laid down as true by an instructor or master. The doctrines of the gospel are the principles or truths taught by Christ and his apostles. The doctrines of Plato are the principles which he taught. Hence a doctrine may be true or false; it may be a mere tenet or opinion. " (king James dictionary)

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That's not a 'bible definition' - it's a dictionary definition. In any case, sure, in that sense evolution is a doctrine, just like math and history. Creation is a doctrine in that sense as well, but also in the sense of it being a religious belief.

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The majority of the people. Power to the people.

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The majority of the people at the time of the formation of the US were Christian? Yes, but I don't get your point. So what?

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Religion in a sense of one denomination's pet ideas and doctrines. Especially evolution!

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There is no such sense. Evolution is not a 'denomination'. Religion is limited to theistic ideas and beliefs - evolution is not theistic in any way.

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A fact most Christians agree with as well, but that fact does not include anything beyond creation!

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I don't understand what you mean by this sentence.

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Any evoluting statred at or after creation. There had to be something to evolve.

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Obviously evolution started after there was life - whatever form that life had, and however you believe it got here. You believe it was created by God - science can't make that conclusion. Regardless, once it got here, it began evolving.

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Going beyond the garden is absolute religion! Nothing before there was observed at all.

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By 'going beyond the garden' I think you mean Eden? Are you again referring to the idea that evolution occurred before man was created in Eden? I'm a bit unclear here as to what you mean.However, let me reiterate - there is nothing remotely religious about evolution or evolutionary theory.Science is not limited to what it observes. It can - and does - observe consequences of things and from those consequences extrapolate what happened. That's what's the core of things like forensic science. Nobody saw Joe kill Fred, but thanks to forensic science we CAN see things like Joe's fingerprints all over the gun, his blood on the floor where Fred hit him, and so forth, that enables us to scientifically conclude that Joe killed Fred. In the same way, science can conclude many things without observing them.Edited by toff, : Corrections

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No. I am saying that all evolving that went on started after God created the world, and man, and animals, and sea life, and so on.

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It's obvious that all evolving that went on started after life arose, however you believe that life did arise.

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Oh but it is, it requires faith.

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No, it isn't, and no, it doesn't. In any case, the definition of religion does not even mention the word faith. Whether faith is involved in acceptence of/belief in evolution is completely irrelevant to the question of whether or not it is a religion.

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It takes belief, no one observed evolution beyond Adam and Eve did they? No. Not at all.

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Of course it takes belief - everything does. So what? That doesn't make it religion.

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Sorry this is hard for you, but thems the facts.

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Leave out the snide little comments. I'm trying to have a reasonable discussion.

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A BIBLE dictionary.

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A DICTIONARY. That it's about terms used in the bible doesn't make it the bible; it makes it a dictionary.

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And yes in that sense evolution is a doctrine.

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Just as is math, and geography. So what?

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Thank you. So is the truth of the bible, but that is a good doctrine.

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It is a matter of opinion whether (a) the bible is truth and (b) whether what it holds is a good doctrine.

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So read their documents with this in mind. He is the reason for all seasons.

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Whatever that's supposed to mean.

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The evolving we now see did not exist before things were created, such as all animals, and Adam.

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Obviously ALL evolving didn't existe before there was life.

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It involves a spirit every bit as much as creation does. You just can't see it.

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No, it doesn't. Adding "you just can't see it" is pretty meaningless and does not support your argument in any way. Invisible aliens live in your house...you just can't see it. See?Instead of saying "you just can't see it", how about you provide something to support your claims?

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Not things that involve pre creation!

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EVERYTHING, of course.