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Author Topic:   Creationist/ID Education should be allowed
PaulK
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Posts: 13115
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 61 of 116 (690921)
02-18-2013 3:15 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by saab93f
02-18-2013 3:00 AM


Re: Does stupidity really know no bounds?
You do realise that story is an intentional parody?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by saab93f, posted 02-18-2013 3:00 AM saab93f has responded

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saab93f
Member (Idle past 241 days)
Posts: 265
From: Finland
Joined: 12-17-2009


Message 62 of 116 (690922)
02-18-2013 3:21 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by PaulK
02-18-2013 3:15 AM


Re: Does stupidity really know no bounds?
Yes - but when you think about the fact that Ms Bachmann is a member of the Intelligence committee...
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Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15950
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 4.6


(1)
Message 63 of 116 (690933)
02-18-2013 5:50 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by kofh2u
02-17-2013 7:48 AM


Re: Does stupidity really know no bounds?
We seem to know a lot about what electricity can do, but we do not know what it is.
All we KNOW is that if a charged particle is moved, two fields apparently appear, one magnetic and the other electrical as we have come to detect and call them.

And then we have this thing called quantum electrodynamics, which can predict the behavior of electrons to ten decimal places.

Or we can listen to "creation scientists" telling us that: "Some scientists think that the sun may be the source of most electricity".


This message is a reply to:
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kofh2u
Member (Idle past 1349 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 64 of 116 (690989)
02-18-2013 7:09 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by Dr Adequate
02-18-2013 5:50 AM


Re: Does stupidity really know no bounds?

We seem to know a lot about what electricity can do, but we do not know what it is.
All we KNOW is that if a charged particle is moved, two fields apparently appear, one magnetic and the other electrical as we have come to detect and call them.

And then we have this thing called quantum electrodynamics, which can predict the behavior of electrons to ten decimal places.

Or we can listen to "creation scientists" telling us that: "Some scientists think that the sun may be the source of most electricity".

... and in spite of ALL that we can say about what Electricity can do, we can NOT be smart enough yet to explain what Energy actually is, and we remain totally stupid and ignorant saying only that it is "able to do work."

We are stuck saying Energy is an ability, an ability to make things move, an ability to do work.


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kofh2u
Member (Idle past 1349 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 65 of 116 (690990)
02-18-2013 7:20 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Dr Adequate
09-16-2012 10:45 AM


Re: re-tracing "the steps" in evolution

Because those are purely human creations? Well, in the first place many Christian apologists don't believe that (see my debate with sac) but in the second place even if they were, who invented counting, eh? You don't know. We have no origin story for mathematics.

God MUST have "invented" mathematics:

Matthew 10:30
But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.

This also infers that God knows quite well about the genetic code, too.

Then we have the Old Testament reporting the number Pi correctly to one decimal place, indirectly by telling us the dimensions by which to construct a round basin before the Temple.

Again,the Sacred Language, Hebrew, uses 22 symbols to represent the Natural Numbers:


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NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9918
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.2


(1)
Message 66 of 116 (690999)
02-18-2013 8:19 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by kofh2u
02-17-2013 7:48 AM


Re: Does stupidity really know no bounds?
All we KNOW is that if a charged particle is moved, two fields apparently appear, one magnetic and the other electrical as we have come to detect and call them.

Those things are not 'electricity'. The field is an electric field, yes, but the field is not 'electricity'. An electric field is present whenever a charge, moving or stationary is present, but that field is not electricity either.

Electricity is a name we give to a set of phenomena associated with electric charges. And we know those phenomena in every detail imaginable.

Further, we know exactly what an electric field is as well.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
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NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9918
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.2


(1)
Message 67 of 116 (691002)
02-18-2013 8:34 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by kofh2u
02-17-2013 7:41 AM


Re: Does stupidity really know no bounds?
Focusing on just the one form of the seven different forms of Energy is less than desirable, but the writer's point is valid.

The writer was incorrect. He did not say that we did not know what energy was. Some how you decided to change the subject from electricity to energy.

But what are the seven forms of Energy? That ought to be good for a laugh.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
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saab93f
Member (Idle past 241 days)
Posts: 265
From: Finland
Joined: 12-17-2009


(3)
Message 68 of 116 (691011)
02-19-2013 2:31 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by kofh2u
02-18-2013 7:20 PM


Re: re-tracing "the steps" in evolution
Wow - that is a definite proof of the existence of a deity. A decimal numeral system is also such proof - why else would we have ten fingers?
Just like a banana is designed to fit into human hand and to have a "zipper" to open easily - what could be a more clear sign of design. A pineapple or a coconut perhaps...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfucpGCm5hY


This message is a reply to:
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ringo
Member
Posts: 13631
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


(1)
Message 69 of 116 (691639)
02-23-2013 1:39 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by kofh2u
02-18-2013 7:20 PM


Re: re-tracing "the steps" in evolution
kofh2u writes:

This also infers that God knows quite well about the genetic code, too.


If God created the genetic code, then He would know about it, yes. No surprises there. But that says nothing about the authors of the Bible understanding the genetic code.

kofh2u writes:

Then we have the Old Testament reporting the number Pi correctly to one decimal place, indirectly by telling us the dimensions by which to construct a round basin before the Temple.


Pi to one significant figure is, at best, a very rough approximation. I use it myself sometimes. Sure, some sheep herder may have figured it out. Sure, it may be worth teaching to children. But it's just ludicrous to call it "science in the Bible".
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saab93f
Member (Idle past 241 days)
Posts: 265
From: Finland
Joined: 12-17-2009


Message 70 of 116 (693180)
03-12-2013 9:02 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by saab93f
02-19-2013 2:31 AM


Oklahoma...
It is nothing short of amazing how stupid some lawmakers can be. Now a law has been introduced stating that kids can just throw wild unsubstantiated claims without teachers being able to flunk them.

http://www.motherjones.com/...ience-evolution-climate-change


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New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11703
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


(2)
Message 71 of 116 (693182)
03-12-2013 10:40 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by saab93f
03-12-2013 9:02 AM


Re: Oklahoma...
I can't see how this isn't about religion.

I remember when I was taking a class on human evolution in college. The professor made an announcement on the first day explaining how she knew some people felt the topic was controversial and that they might not believe that humans evolved. She said that they didn't expect you to believe it, but they did expect you to be able to explain the scientific position on human evolution.

Just because you don't want to accept the scientific explanation doesn't mean that you shouldn't have to learn what that explanation is. These laws don't help with anything at all.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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CoolBeans
Member (Idle past 1144 days)
Posts: 196
From: Honduras
Joined: 02-11-2013


Message 72 of 116 (693184)
03-12-2013 10:53 AM


No, it shouldnt be allowed.
    
saab93f
Member (Idle past 241 days)
Posts: 265
From: Finland
Joined: 12-17-2009


(1)
Message 73 of 116 (693203)
03-12-2013 2:45 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by New Cat's Eye
03-12-2013 10:40 AM


Re: Oklahoma...
I have never understood how grown-ups claim that it is agood thing for a kid to "think critically". What is the role of a qualified teacher if the word of a preacher has the same weight in science class.
The creationists are in general dishonest, intellectually lazy dimwits whom I totally loath.
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 Message 71 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-12-2013 10:40 AM New Cat's Eye has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
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dwise1
Member
Posts: 2956
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 4.2


(4)
Message 74 of 116 (693205)
03-12-2013 2:50 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by New Cat's Eye
03-12-2013 10:40 AM


Re: Oklahoma...
That is exactly what the Science Framework for California Public Schools Kindergarten Through Grade Twelve (1990) stated on page 206 in the Anti-Dogmatism Statement:
quote:
State Board of Education Policy on the Teaching of Natural Sciences, adopted 13 Jan 1989 [emphasized in original]:
quote:
Nothing in science or in any other field of knowledge shall be taught dogmatically. A dogma is a system of beliefs that is not subject to scientific test and refutation. Compelling belief is inconsistent with the goal of education; the goal is to encourage understanding.


Later, the Framework makes this statement:
quote:
We repeat here the fundamental conviction of this framework: Education does not compel belief; it seeks to encourage understanding. Nothing in science, or in any other field, should be taught dogmatically. But teaching about something does not constitute advancing it as truth. In science, there is no truth. There is only knowledge that tests itself and builds on itself constantly. This is the message that students should take away with them.

In stark contrast, when "creation science" with its "balanced treatment" approach has been used, it instead does try to compel belief. After having misinformed the student, it repeatedly urges the student to choose, based on that misinformation, between the Creator and "godless evolution". Not only is that inconsistent with the goals of education, but it also works against those goals. All that "balanced treatment" is trying to do is to proselytize. Furthermore, the principal tools in that proselytizing is the use of false claims and deception. And one of the effects of "balanced treatment" has been to turn some of those students into atheists (eg, Ray Baird's elementary grade classes, Livermore, CA, 1981).


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dwise1
Member
Posts: 2956
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 75 of 116 (693207)
03-12-2013 2:51 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by saab93f
03-12-2013 9:02 AM


Re: Oklahoma...
Sadly, those lawmakers represent the people who voted them into office. Idiocracy in action.

Edited by dwise1, : 2nd sentence


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