How close are Christians to their god?

What qualification criteria?If someone says they are a Christian, why would anyone doubt it?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Yup, even Christians lie.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

As I said, Christians too lie. But that is not a reason to doubt when someone says they are a Christian.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Well, as you might expect, some accept more than others. I've been told many a time that I am not a Christian. I would say Yes and No.Let me try to explain my position. First, there is a logic construct I would ask you to consider.If GOD exists, She exists regardless of any evidence that It does not exist.If GOD does NOT exist, It does not exist regardless of any evidence that She does exist.Some folk say I harp on that but it is for a reason. Any entity that created this universe will not be subject to our whims or fancy. I cannot decide which is more awesome, contemplating something that could imagine this unverse or something that could manipulate the forces involved.So then we move on to the second thing I think important and that again, many folk claim I just keep harping on.The Map is not the Territory.You asked Religions are not GOD. None of the religions have it right, we are all wrong. What we see in religions, whether Christian or Muslim or Hindu or Jew or Taoist or Buddhist or Satanist or Wiccan is but an attempt to map the territory none of us have ever seen.There is a reality there. I believe the reality is that there is a GOD. I may well be wrong. Others believe equally strongly that there is no GOD. They too may be wrong. Our beliefs do not determine reality. As my mommy said, "Wish in one hand and spit (my mommy was a proper southern lady) in the other. See which gets full first."So we are now at the point where all too often the old "consequence of being wrong" gambit is pulled out.No way, not going there.I believe the primary function of religion is to teach us how to live our lives, how to best get along with folk, how to take care of the world we live on, how to care for the other critters, how to set goals and priorities and figure out what is important.If a Christian, as an example, leads a life as described above and there is no GOD, no afterlife, then they had a good life and maybe left things a little better than they found them.If an Atheist, as an example, leads a life as described above and there is a GOD, an afterlife, then they had a good life and maybe left things a little better than they found them and I am quite sure would be welcomed into heaven.There is no doubt in my mind that we do create our images of GOD. There is also no doubt in my mind that those images are no more the reality of GOD than a map is the reality of the territory, that a treasure map is the treasure itself.One last thing. Chat here is as different from most chats as EvC is from other boards. It is often a place where you can grab someone and really get to pick their brain in near real time. We hope you will drop in again one day. Remember, if it doesn't live up to your expectations, you can always change it.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I think those are very reasonable things to ask. Not just to ask once either, but to continue to question throughout your life.The only way to tell if a map is accurate is to check it against reality. Unfortunately, some of the things in the Territory GOD are not subject to direct testing and so must be infered. My personal method is to compare the practical everyday uses of the map to the territory I live in. Does the Map I use help me navigate the territory I am covering Right Now?Like a world atlas, there may well be places on the map I have not visited. I have no way of knowing if those parts of the atlas I cannot test against reality are correct except by looking at my experience with those maps in the atlas I have tested. There is a risk there as well as an assumption. I have no way of being assured that the maps not tested are of the same accuracy as those tested and must simply assume they are until tested. I can, of course, also assume that until tested they are not as accurate and to me, that seems an equally valid approach.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Well, I believe you are wrong, but then I was wrong once myself.First, I don't forsee a state of perfect harmony either here or in the afterlife as either likely or even desireable. In fact that sounds very, very boring to me, perfectly hellish in fact.But one thing I feel I need to comment on is: Please remember that I am at best no more than a mapmaker, more likely only a map reader. None of us will know the reality of GOD while we live, at least it is very unlikely we will do so. But right now, all we can deal with is this life, this world, this universe. It seems to me that our task is to try to do the best within the bounds of what we have.Unlike many Christians, I can't say I'm saved. I hope so, but really won't know until after I die, and then only if there is a GOD, and there is an afterlife. And if either of those turns out to be true I have no idea of whether or not GOD and the afterlife will turn out to be anything I imagined.I hope there is an afterlife, there is still so very much I want to know and this lifetime will not be anywhere near long enough to learn it all.The other thing I'd like to expand on is "perfect harmony". I find that an almost frightening idea. Difference, confrontation, disagreement all drive learning, drive growth, drive art, drive love, drive joy and wonder. Sure I wish we could find alternatives to war as a means of settling disputes, but lets not get to the point where there are no differences.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Yes and no.I find the idea of Satan, some great opponent of GOD nearly laughable. If there is a GOD, one who created this universe, who intuitively understood the relationships and effects of all the forces, the idea that there is some existing enemy just seems silly. If GOD is the creator, and destroyer, then nothing can really threaten GOD.If there is a Satan, I believe he is the willing servant of GOD, the tester, the teacher, who provides opportunities for us to learn, expand, grow, evolve.Do I believe I have been tested? Sure. I just hope that I passed more tests than I failed. I also hope that I learned something from every one of the failures. Pretty sure. I've touched on that in the past here and while it is certainly possible that God is Loki, the trickster, I don't think that the evidence supports that conclusion.However, I'd like to return to something I said earlier. All we can really deal with is this universe, the one we live in. We have no control or influence over the actuality, the territory that is GOD. We could, and I think some folk do, operate from the position that the world is the product of and run by some malevolnt entity. I think that would be a good description of either the ID position or classic Biblical Creationism. They tend, it seems to me, to look at the evidence and then discount it because "Goddidit" and so our interpretation of the evidence must be wrong. They see humans as some special creation, that God stepped in and changed the rules, that God is playing a shell game, making us guess which shell hides the pea while all the time She has palmed it.The universe I see does not seem the product of a malevolent spirit. It appears to follow reason and logic, even if we do not yet understand all the workings. There have been surprises, but looking back on them the reaction most often is "Well, that makes sense" or "Why didn't I see that?"AbE:Forgot to address this, sorry. Please remember that you too are onboard. While each of us may be very sure of our beliefs about what happens after death, none of us have really tested it yet. We are all on the journey, just some pretend that they know for sure what the destination is. I know what is on the ticket, but also know that I once headed off to see a young lady at Randolf Macon but ended up spending a wonderful weekend at SweetBrair.Edited by jar, : add response on journey.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

to which dogrelata replied:

quote:

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As I may have mentioned earlier, I got off at the first stop.

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I need to respond to this because I believe that you misunderstood what I have said. I do think though that it is an important point to discuss.TTBOMK both of us are alive and living in the same universe. The journey I was talking about is life, the life either of us leads. The destination for both of us really is unknown. I may well believe that it is some afterlife, while you may well believe that there is none, but neither of us knows for sure. Until and unless we get together and comapre tickets neither of us knows which destination we chose, but then neither of us knows if we will reach the destinatin we expect or find when we do get off something totally unexpected. We will both end up at THE destination, regardless of what we expect it to be. Of course. I will not argue that at all. If you read much of what I post here at EvC I believe that you will find me often arguing the very same points.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

to which dogrelata replied:

quote:

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As I may have mentioned earlier, I got off at the first stop.

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I need to respond to this because I believe that you misunderstood what I have said. I do think though that it is an important point to discuss.TTBOMK both of us are alive and living in the same universe. The journey I was talking about is life, the life either of us leads. The destination for both of us really is unknown. I may well believe that it is some afterlife, while you may well believe that there is none, but neither of us knows for sure. Until and unless we get together and comapre tickets neither of us knows which destination we chose, but then neither of us knows if we will reach the destinatin we expect or find when we do get off something totally unexpected. We will both end up at THE destination, regardless of what we expect it to be. Of course. I will not argue that at all. If you read much of what I post here at EvC I believe that you will find me often arguing the very same points.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion