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Author Topic:   Conversations with God
Phat
Member
Posts: 10968
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 46 of 82 (710814)
11-11-2013 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by AZPaul3
11-11-2013 7:55 AM


Doubt is healthy...keep doubting
I read a great article this morning which mirrors the way that I believe. The article, titled Help Thou My Unbelief was written by Ryan Ahlgrim, lead pastor of First Mennonite Church in Indianapolis. He says:
God is an unsolvable puzzle, a mystery that I know I can never understandbut God is also the ground of my meaning and purpose.
The difference between me and you is not thaqt you have embraced any facts which I have clearly missed. The difference, as I see it, is that you cant or wont trust uncertainty and in fact have no desire to believe to begin with...whereas I do.
I then came to the realization that my faith in God was not because of historical, scientific, or philosophical evidence, but because I experienced a relationship with God. Through prayer, Bible reading, corporate worship, the beauty of nature, and even my daily routines, I experienced life as meaningful, with a gracious presence behind it all. God was not an idea I intellectually came to believe in. Rather, God was that with whom I had a relationship of awe and reverence, the ground from which sprung my belief in love, goodness, and hope.
You have sought to find proof in order to disbelieve...I have sought proof in order to believe.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by AZPaul3, posted 11-11-2013 7:55 AM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by AZPaul3, posted 11-11-2013 4:24 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 3456
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 47 of 82 (710848)
11-11-2013 4:24 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Phat
11-11-2013 10:38 AM


Re: Doubt is healthy...keep doubting
You have sought to find proof in order to disbelieve...I have sought proof in order to believe.

For the first part, no, I have no intent to anything. I see the facts, I hear the experts, your's, their's and other's. I read more experts and I see more facts. The facts lead down a path. I follow.

As for the second part, you are entitled. In a world where reality defies your beliefs I imagine it quite difficult to hold on to those beliefs. Find solace wherever you can. Your path is paved with different stuff. Too bad it ultimately leads nowhere.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Phat, posted 11-11-2013 10:38 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by Faith, posted 11-11-2013 5:23 PM AZPaul3 has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 29147
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 48 of 82 (710851)
11-11-2013 5:23 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by AZPaul3
11-11-2013 4:24 PM


Re: Doubt is healthy...keep doubting
Faith is a gift from God, but if you want it you can ask Him for it, He's generous with those who seek. There's nothing "healthy" about doubt, nothing admirable either; doubt is simply our natural state, a legacy from the Fall. You all keep trying to make it into a virtue it just isn't.

Oh we also naturally have "faith" in lots of things too, like the sun coming up in the morning, like gravity more or less keeping us from flying off into space, like furniture not rising up and throwing us on the floor.

But faith in the God of the Bible, the salvation offered us there and nowhere else, no, nobody has THAT faith naturally. That's why God gave us His revelation, so we do have a chance at faith in Him through the fog of our fallen nature. As I've said before there IS evidence for it, tons of it, but you can make yourself blind to it if you're so inclined.

Again, you can seek faith in the God of the Bible if you'd really like to have it, but again, in the end it's a gift. Me, I'm SO grateful for that gift. It's made sense of things nobody can possibly make sense of without it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by AZPaul3, posted 11-11-2013 4:24 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by AZPaul3, posted 11-11-2013 7:12 PM Faith has responded
 Message 81 by Phat, posted 12-20-2017 9:28 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 3456
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.1


(1)
Message 49 of 82 (710857)
11-11-2013 7:12 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Faith
11-11-2013 5:23 PM


Re: Doubt is healthy...keep doubting
Intellect is a gift of evolution and we didn't have to seek or ask for it. It is available to all people to varying degrees and we can use it or neglect it as we desire.

Our intellect is most powerful in curiosity, in questioning and doubting our own perceptions and the insistent perceptions of others and in testing, observing and modeling the works of the world around us.

One of the things our intellect has shown us is that we do not have to rely on magic or faith to coax the sun to rise in the morning since we know precisely why, when and how the clockwork of the heavens works. We know with certainty where the sun will break over our horizon, what path for what duration it will transit our skies and where and when it will transect the horizon again. We do not have to hope for this. We know it will happen.

Another thing our intellect has shown us is that the proposition that we are bad people, unworthy of this life, sinners whose only sins are being born and breathing, is reprehensible to reality, bankrupt of all humanity and is a most evil and violent philosophy worthy of nothing but rejection.

Our intellect has shown us that we are the masters of our own destiny. That we rule our own minds and our own actions. That we need not ask for purpose or salvation or revelation from anything other than ourselves, our society and our species.

Faith is a gift from God ...

No. Faith is your nom de fora.

Would you like a cup of tea, M'lady?

(_)?

Edited by AZPaul3, : added thought


This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Faith, posted 11-11-2013 5:23 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by Faith, posted 11-11-2013 10:52 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 29147
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 50 of 82 (710866)
11-11-2013 10:52 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by AZPaul3
11-11-2013 7:12 PM


Re: Doubt is healthy...keep doubting
Poor deceived fallen intellect. Can sure rustle up the bravado though.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by AZPaul3, posted 11-11-2013 7:12 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

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jar
Member
Posts: 30701
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


(2)
Message 51 of 82 (710883)
11-12-2013 8:39 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by Faith
11-11-2013 10:52 PM


Re: Doubt is healthy...keep doubting
While it is certainly possible that your intellect has fallen and you can't get it up, what makes you think someone else intellect has fallen?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Faith, posted 11-11-2013 10:52 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 14905
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 52 of 82 (710907)
11-12-2013 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Phat
11-10-2013 2:14 AM


Re: Prayer: Listening, Talking, or Both?
Phat writes:

There are far too many sane people that believe for me to dismiss it all as wishful thinking...


I think of "insanity" as the inability to function in society. In a society where everybody wears their pajamas on the street and yells at parking meters, the man in the gray flannel suit is insane.

If there are believers who are sane it's only because our society is flexible enough to accomodate them.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Phat, posted 11-10-2013 2:14 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by Phat, posted 11-13-2013 6:01 AM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10968
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 53 of 82 (710938)
11-13-2013 6:01 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by ringo
11-12-2013 12:29 PM


Belief and Sanity
Ringo writes:

If there are believers who are sane it's only because our society is flexible enough to accommodate them.

How gracious of us!

Perhaps I should clarify, so as to satisfy your sanity requirements.

There are far too many sane people whom believe and do for me to question their sanity or their conclusions. I guess that my point is that belief does not get the respect that it deserves these days.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by ringo, posted 11-12-2013 12:29 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by Jon, posted 11-13-2013 8:37 AM Phat has responded
 Message 59 by ringo, posted 11-13-2013 10:38 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 54 of 82 (710948)
11-13-2013 8:37 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by Phat
11-13-2013 6:01 AM


Re: Belief and Sanity
I guess that my point is that belief does not get the respect that it deserves these days.

Why does belief deserve any respect? And what kind of respect does it deserve?


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Phat, posted 11-13-2013 6:01 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by Phat, posted 11-13-2013 8:53 AM Jon has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10968
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 55 of 82 (710950)
11-13-2013 8:53 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by Jon
11-13-2013 8:37 AM


Re: Belief and Sanity
It is the holder of the belief that deserves respect. After all, some people think the Koran is a Holy Book...I certainly wouldnt use one to prop up the uneven leg on the couch were they to be likely to drop by....

Plus i get tired of these same worn out arguments that require evidence for belief. Of course, I am free to avoid forums, I suppose....


This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Jon, posted 11-13-2013 8:37 AM Jon has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by jar, posted 11-13-2013 9:05 AM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30701
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 56 of 82 (710951)
11-13-2013 9:05 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by Phat
11-13-2013 8:53 AM


Re: Belief and Sanity
Respect should be earned not given.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Phat, posted 11-13-2013 8:53 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by Phat, posted 11-13-2013 9:17 AM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10968
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 57 of 82 (710953)
11-13-2013 9:17 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by jar
11-13-2013 9:05 AM


Re: Belief and Sanity
Salvation was a free gift. We humans certainly didn't earn it.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by jar, posted 11-13-2013 9:05 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by jar, posted 11-13-2013 9:23 AM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 60 by ramoss, posted 11-13-2013 7:41 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30701
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


(1)
Message 58 of 82 (710954)
11-13-2013 9:23 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by Phat
11-13-2013 9:17 AM


Re: Belief and Sanity
I know that is what you believe but you do not and cannot know.

BUT what does that have to do with respect being earned?


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Phat, posted 11-13-2013 9:17 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 14905
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


(1)
Message 59 of 82 (710961)
11-13-2013 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by Phat
11-13-2013 6:01 AM


Re: Belief and Sanity
Phat writes:

I guess that my point is that belief does not get the respect that it deserves these days.


The problem is that it's believers who don't respect other believers. Unbelievers tend to treat all beliefs equally. Believers often don't.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Phat, posted 11-13-2013 6:01 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
ramoss
Member
Posts: 3078
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 60 of 82 (710996)
11-13-2013 7:41 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by Phat
11-13-2013 9:17 AM


Re: Belief and Sanity
Why do you think there is salvation, and what are we being saved for?

In the Jewish view, there is no 'salvation' needed (as defined by Christianity), so that concept is null and void.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Phat, posted 11-13-2013 9:17 AM Phat has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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