homosexuality and the Bible

crashfrog writes:

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He made humans with a gay gene?

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I'm going to have to split the difference here between those who say that it hasn't been shown and this statement here.It is fairly clear that sexual orientation has a biological component. Twin studies show that identical twins are much more likely to share the same sexual orientation, even when raised apart. Some studies seem to have found some genetic markers that are shared by gay people as well as some studies that have found other, physical differences between gay people and straight people, but those findings are all still preliminary. Attempts to change a person's sexuality routinely fail miserably; it appears to become established by age 3 if not earlier.Does this mean sexual orientation is genetic? No. It simply means that there is a biological component. It may be a hormonal issue.------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

Mr Jack writes:

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The selective pressure against a 'gay gene' would be huge.

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Why? You're assuming that there is no species benefit to non-reproducing individuals.We often find in studying the sexual behaviour of other animals that gay individuals will often assist in the raising of siblings' children. Nieces and nephews are not direct biological descendents, but they are likely to carry a significant number of genes in common with their aunts and uncles. By assisting in their raising, those genes are more likely to remain in the population.So it would seem that the question of the pressure against genetic components of sexual orientation are quite complex.------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

crashfrog writes:

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Well, until Rrhain comes around, is there anyone to address Truthlover's points?

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Brian already did.truthlover's main problem is that he is still is confusing our modern concepts of sexuality with the ancient ones and Brian very eloquently responded to them.There's at least one case of misquotation, by the way. The reference to "that which is unseemly" was my argument that it had nothing to do with sexuality. I don't know why he thinks I think it has to do with prostitution. I was the one pointing out that it is more a term used for female genitalia and thus to go from that to male homosexuality is ludicrous. And yet, many people point to "that which is unseemly" as a reference to homosexuality.------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

messenjaH writes:

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Sexual prefence is a choice, its not a disease or a condition, and it doesnt happen genetically.

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Then why is it we have singuarly failed to change anybody's sexual orientation?

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Your not born gay.

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Why not?It seems to happen before you're 3.------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

messenjaH writes:

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Maybe those in the family who are gay influence that persons choices.

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(*blink!*)You didn't just say that, did you?Considering that the overwhelming majority of gay people were raised in straight families, where does this idea come from?You're not about to argue "gays recruit," are you? Tell me, what would it take for you to "turn gay"? What would have to happen for you to decide that you are actually attracted to someone of the same sex and then go out and actively seek sexual contact with someone of your own sex?What on earth would you get out of it? If you find the idea disgusting and abhorrent, what would possibly drive you to do it over and over and over and over...?------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

A_Christian writes:

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So, we get a young teen (already confused about life) and tell him
that if he isn't practicing fornication by 15 he is obviously gay
and needs to come out.

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Excuse me? Where does anybody ever say this? Show me anything anywhere by any reputable person that indicates a person who doesn't have sex by the time he graduates high school is really gay.By the way, how can somebody be "confused" about what makes him horny? You either get aroused or you don't. You cannot make somebody find something sexually attractive. If you could, then perhaps you could tell us what it would take to turn you gay. What could somebody possibly do to you that would make you find another member of your own sex desirable?I can easily see somebody being "confused" about what it means from a societal point of view when he finds himself sexually aroused by a bunch of different things, especially when your body is so flooded with hormones that simply sitting in a certain position can trigger sexual response.But how can there be any confusion over the concept of, "Do you want to kiss that person"?

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Of course there are older men who would just
love to be of service to our young fledgling (show him the ropes).

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We call them the clergy...I didn't just say that, did I?You seem to have confused pederasty with homosexuality. Child abusers choose their victims based upon availability and the fact that they are androgynous. Are there gay pederasts? Of course. But the studies show that gay people are actually less likely to be pederasts than straight people.------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

prophecyexclaimed writes:

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The Bible blatantly states that being homosexual is an abomination to the Lord.

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Really? Where? I've been through the whole thing a few times and I can't find a single verse that says being gay is a problem.Oh, I've found passages that talk about how to go about having sex with someone of your own sex, but they number less than 10. This is compared to the few hundred passages that talk about how to about having sex with someone of the opposite sex.If putting restrictions on how one has sex with someone of the same sex means it is an abomination to be gay, then it must be really obscene to be straight since there are a hundred times as many claims of "abomination" attached to heterosexual sex acts.Or perhaps there is a difference between being and doing....------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

A_Christian writes:

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However,
the indivdual recognizes that he is living in error and is trying to
change with GOD's help.

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But it has never happened. We've never been able to change anybody's sexual orientation.

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You need to remember what it was like being an adolescent and going
through puberty. You need to set aside the attitude and discover
alittle common sense.

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No, that's my argument to you. You need to remember what it was like going through puberty, set aside your attitude, and discover some common sense:How could anybody convince you that you really like something you detest? How can anybody be confused over the question of, "Do you want to kiss that person"?Do you really think you could be convinced to go gay?If not, what makes you think anybody else could?------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

Brian writes:

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I think that there was recently a homosexual marrige in a church in California? Do you know anything about that?

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Nope. No state in the United States allows gay marriage as a legal contract.There are many religious sects that recognize marriage between people of the same sex and have been performing such marriages for years.However, Governor Gray Davis has said that he would sign AB 205 which would provide many of the state rights that come along with marriage to civil unions, but they, like Vermonts, are not marriage and do not convey any of the federal rights.This is in comparison to Canada, the Netherlands, Germany, Denmark, Norway, and Sweden which do confer same-sex marriage.------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

messanjaH responds to DC85:

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If it was wrong why did your God let him feel it?

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Uh... free will.

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It's "free will" to like Rocky Road ice cream? It's "free will" to like purple is a wonderful color but orange is hideous? It's "free will" to like red heads over brunettes? It's "free will" to have that little spot right above the inside of your right elbow that if brushed in just the right way makes you shiver all over?------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

A_Christian writes:

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Does a person wake up one morning & say, "I want to be a prostitute?"

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Nope. And if you ask them if they like being a prostitute, if they like what they're doing as a prostitute, if they feel good when they are turning a trick, you'll probably get a negative response.Compare this to gay people. Ask them if they like being gay, if they like what they're doing when they're having sex with someone of the same sex, if they feel good when having sex with someone of the same sex, you'll probably get a positive response.

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Choices we make during our lives
and the friends we listen to all have an influence.

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How can somebody choose to like something they find abhorrent?Please, tell us how we might go about convincing you to become gay to the point that you would actively go out and seek sexual contact with another person of your sex.Do you really think somebody to convince you to kiss someone you didn't find sexually attractive?And if we can't do it to you, what makes you think anybody could do it to anybody else?

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Do you really believe that if it "feels" good that it's good.

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No, we really believe that if it cannot be changed and shows all the signs of being biological in origin, then it isn't a "sin."

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I would also submit to you that through the middle of the 20th
century, most criminals were considered to have genetic disorders
and that their behavior was hereditary.

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But they had no evidence for it. How does one find a gene when one has trouble just getting an image of the chromosome?

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Homosexuals recruit the young

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(*blink!*)You didn't just say that, did you?Tell us, how does one do this? How does one convince somebody else that they really find someone else attractive? How could we do this to you? What would we have to do to convince you that you're really gay, that you really want to have sex with someone of the same sex, that you really want to put your mouth "down there," that you really want someone else to put his genitals "down there," etc.If it's that easy, then we should be able to do it to you, so help us out here. What would it take to make you gay?

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The ONLY reason for
marriage is to start a responsible family unit with GOD at the
top over the father supported by the wife and raising children in
the understanding of the LORD.

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Says who? You? Why should we believe you?If this were the only reason for marriage, why is there no compulsion to have children in order to have a legal marriage? Why is it that you can't get divorced if you never have children but you can get divorced if you never have sex?You do understand the difference between your idea of what makes a good marriage and everybody else's idea, right?------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

Dan Carroll writes:

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There's this gay drill sargeant on my street. Every time I pass his office, he yells out, "TEN HUT! You look like the kind of man we could use in this-man-on-that-man's army, son! We'll pay for college if you do it with another guy!"

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Oh, come on! Everybody knows it's a lottery. You go into the store, buy the scratcher, and if you find three triangles, you win!------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

A_Christian responds to me:

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Did you attend public junior & high school?

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Yep. In many places, too. Air Force brat...I'm from everywhere.

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Look man, when I attended
sex and girls were what most guys seemed to talk about.

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And do you really think you could have been convinced to kiss somebody you really didn't want to and actually like it?

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What I am saying is that the peer group puts alot of influence on
an individual to CONFORM.

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And where do we find any societal attempts to make people gay? Look at the movies. Look at TV. Look at books and magazines and newspapers and web sites. We see nothing but heterosexuality shoved everywhere. Please, please show me where there's a peer group that puts a lot [two words] of influence on an individual to "conform" to being gay.We life in a culture where "that's so gay" is considered acceptable slang.I asked you what it would take to turn you gay. I'm serious. You've advocated that a person can be "recruited" into being gay. How? How would one go about this? How could I possibly convince you that having sex with someone of your own sex would be a pleasurable experience and of such intensity that you would actually go out and actively seek partners on your own?

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I was SAVED when I was 9 years old. I
was was tall and skinny. Hey, I wanted to have muscles and impress
people (girls too). There was this one guy in gym who had the looks, muscles, and dates (if he wanted them). He was a turn on. Fortunately, I knew that coveting (according to the BIBLE) would only lead me into mischief.

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Here's the question: Did you want to kiss him? Did you consider that if you were to kiss him and put your mouth "down there" and have him do the same to you, you'd like it? Did you get an erection when he was around and did you want to know if he had one, too? Did you fantasize about what sorts of sexual play you two would do together?If not, then how on earth could you possibly say that you were "confused" about anything? I'm not saying you didn't like him and admire him. I'm simply pointing out that you had no real sexual feelings for him.

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He seemed a nice guy---I wanted to see the art. He starts by touching
my shoulder and asks about money, and asks if I could use some. He
then says he has a friend who is into photography and likes to take
pictures of males. He says I have a nice body and great eyes and
starts to poke me in the chest and says real good money...

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You're 19. You're an adult. You're hardly "confused." There's a simple response to somebody hitting on you:"I'm sorry. I'm not interested."Now you know how women feel. It seems to me that you're upset that somebody found you attractive and wanted to have sex with you and was bold enough to ask you if you felt the same way.

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So you see,
even the Germans didn't all hate Jews

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Excuse me? What does this have to do with anything?Godwin's Law: First person to mention the Nazis automatically loses the debate. Anybody who thinks his point can be most effectively illuminated by comparisons to the Holocaust understands neither the Holocaust nor his own argument.------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

A_Christian responds to me:

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Sorry, but the guy was 40 something and I was 19. I wouldn't date
a girl 10 years younger then myself.

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What does that have to do with anything? You were both adults. The words you were looking for were, "No thanks."

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He was "mature" and I was
a kid.

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You were not a kid. You were an adult. That's why the government lets you do things like vote. And when it comes to sex, at 19 you are above the age of consent in all states. For you to whine that the big, bad, mean man made a pass at you is disingenuous at best.That you panicked is pathetic. What did you think he was going to do? Rape you?

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I do not agree with you.

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Doesn't matter. Reality is not beholden to what you wish.

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There are supposed "straight"
guys who like to watch 2 girls. Sorry again, but there is something
very wrong with that.

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Why? What harm does it cause? Be careful, here, do not assume that you know what it is best for their immortal souls. I'm look for concrete, observable changes. Will it cause stocks to fall? Will anybody die? Will famine strike the land?What, specifically, will happen when two people of the same sex have sex?And why on earth do you care when you're not around to be involved?

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We had a guy who was caught fooling with an area dairy cow. I guess
that if he married the cow, then it would be OK?

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Of course, that makes sense. After all, cows are perfectly capable of granting consent. Why, all you have to do is ask the cow, "Wanna go back to the pen and fool around?"Why is it some people can't discuss gay people without bringing up bestiality, rape, pederasty, or marrying cars? What is it about two consenting adults engaging in mutually pleasureable sexual behaviour that automatically leads some people to animals, children, force, and cars?

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Do you believe
that satan exists?

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Irrelevant what I think. I'm not the one saying that there is something wrong with being gay.

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If you do, wouldn't he attack a person at their
weakest link?

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What attack? Are you seriously saying that hitting on somebody is an attack? My god, every heterosexual man in the world is going to hell for having the temerity to ask a woman if she's interested in him.If that guy was going to hell for asking you, then you're going to hell for asking a woman because what he did was no different from what you do.You didn't answer my question: Did it ever occur to you that you might like it? Could anything this man had done possibly made you think that it would have been a pleasant experience...to the point that you would have then gone out and actively sought other men to have sex with?If not, how on earth were you vulnerable? Is your sexuality so fragile that the mere act of another man asking if you might like to have sex with him enough to send your heart a flutter and give you a raging erection?

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There is simply too much graphic sex today, even the
Song of Soloman was not read by men under 30 according to Jewish
tradition.

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And how does that turn people gay? Since all of the graphic sex we see today is heterosexual in nature, how does this turn people gay? How does watching opposite sex couples go at it send a message to people that it is okay to be gay?

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Actually, I used "Germany" but you did pick up on the inference
without a problem. Perhaps it is too good an example?

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No, it's an old rule of debate. That's why it's called "Godwin's Law." First person to mention the Nazis automatically loses. You don't really think we're naive enough to say that because you didn't use the word "Nazi," you weren't talking about them when you mentioned Germans and Jews, do you?But you didn't answer my question: What does that have to do with anything?And I have asked you repeatedly. I would like an answer:If it is possible to "recruit" people, then what would it take to recruit you? What would a person have to do to make you not only like having sex with someone of the same sex but also to actively seek out such activity.------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

Jake22 writes:

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I know many people, Christian and likewise, who would argue vehemently that homosexuality wrecks lives, causes harm, and leads to much of the same stuff that results from alcoholism.

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But the question is: How?For example, we can gauge how alcoholism leads to harm by noting things like being unable to hold a job, spending all one's money on alcohol, causing disturbances while under the influence, etc.What, specifically, is the harm of being gay? Does it make you incapable of holding down a job? Does it make one become violent? Does it make one likely to molest children?

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One thing to note is the Exodus International website. A grain of salt may be in order, but there are some testimonials where "ex-homosexuals" claim homosexuality ruined their lives until they found Christ.

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Um...you do know that the two male founders of Exodus fell in love and got married, yes? The UK branch of Exodus, "Courage," was disbanded back in 2001 because its leader, Jeremy Marks, admitted that: "None of the people we've counseled have converted no matter how much effort and prayer they've put into it. There is much more benefit to the honest view." Notice that John Paulk, the poster boy for Exodus back in 1998 (he even made the cover of Newsweek) has been excised from their literature when he was caught buying drinks for other men in a gay bar in DC.Yeah, yeah, there are lots of "testimonials" about the so-called "ex-gays," but long term study of those who go through "reparative therapy" find that they don't actually change their sexual orientation. Instead, they wind up sublimating it at best. When asked if they still find people of the same sex arousing, the answer is yes. The thoughts and feelings never go away.You can convince somebody that his immortal soul is on the line and thus he will do what he can to avoid behaviour that he thinks will put it in jeopardy, but there is a difference between a person who has sex with someone of the opposite sex because he has to and someone who does it because he really wants to.------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!