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Author Topic:   What is the Meaning of John 3:16?
Phat
Member
Posts: 10225
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 136 of 156 (822287)
10-22-2017 8:49 AM
Reply to: Message 135 by jar
10-22-2017 7:39 AM


Re: Topic Resurrection...lets start slow.
jar writes:

Have you ever noticed posters here claiming that someone is "Not a real Christian"?

Yes of course...most recently we all went at it over the idea of "cultural Christianity" which I even elaborated on. There have been a few times where I questioned your own motives regarding some of what you said...even earlier on (a few years ago) in this very thread. But what does this have to do with the meaning of John 3? Are you suggesting that the same accusation was waged by the early believers? Or am I jumping ahead with my assumptions?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by jar, posted 10-22-2017 7:39 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by jar, posted 10-22-2017 11:06 AM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29749
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 137 of 156 (822298)
10-22-2017 11:06 AM
Reply to: Message 136 by Phat
10-22-2017 8:49 AM


Re: Topic Resurrection...lets start slow.
Phat writes:

But what does this have to do with the meaning of John 3? Are you suggesting that the same accusation was waged by the early believers?

It has to do with not just John 3 but the total history of Christianity as well as every other religion out there.

The issue is "Who owns the current dogma?"

Owning the current dogma means power and control and wealth and property and fame.

The Creeds were an early attempt to use dogma to determine who was in and who was out.

The Trinity was an early attempt to use dogma to determine who was in and who was out.

The list goes on and on.

The Church of Peter or the Church of Paul?

The Church or Rome or Constantinople?

Greek or Russian Orthodox?

Roman Catholic or Protestant.

Calvin, Knox, Luther, Wesley, Fox, Allen, McPherson, Miller and Campbell; Henry and Edward and James.

They each defined who was and who was not a Christian.

So question back at you?

Why do we not teach the facts of what actually happened to young Christians? Why are we not teaching the middle school age kids the honest history of religion and only teaching OUR current dogma?

Which is education and which is indoctrination?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by Phat, posted 10-22-2017 8:49 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by Phat, posted 10-23-2017 8:16 AM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10225
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 138 of 156 (822327)
10-23-2017 8:16 AM
Reply to: Message 137 by jar
10-22-2017 11:06 AM


Re: Topic Resurrection...lets start slow.
I looked up the definition of dogma because I had always imagined the term as a slight towards beliefs. I was actually surprised to learn that the term itself means the beliefs themselves incorporated into a culture by the club of choice.

jar writes:

So question back at you?
Why do we not teach the facts of what actually happened to young Christians? Why are we not teaching the middle school age kids the honest history of religion and only teaching OUR current dogma?

You have mentioned the value of a sacred studies class in school, and I see no problem with it apart from the fear from parents that their kids are merely being taught the history of culture and religion without being fed the dogma which the parents likely want their offspring to have, grooming them for inclusion into the primary power and control that Christianity might allow them. Of course, the family would label it as values rather than power. John 3:16 is the primary scripture that much of US Christianity uses as its starting point. God so loved us that He gave us His Son! Many of us hang on to this seeming promise from the primary power and source of peace and prosperity which we have been raised to believe in. (I never officially believed until I was saved at a church in 2003, but Christianity was an inescapable part of my growing up culture.

My parents seemingly equated it with prosperity and status...being firmly part of the first wave of prosperity from the aberration after World War II. You know my story. I pine for those days of prosperity and hesitate to approach my belief logically, rationally, and reasonably. For that reason, my belief in Jesus as comforter and rescuer remains deeply embedded in my own set of beliefs.

jar writes:

Which is education and which is indoctrination?

Hopefully, this thread will be educational. So tell me more about these supposed redactors. Why has nearly every apologist and church pastor been willfully ignorant of the bare bones truth(if there is such an animal) about the scriptures they hold dear?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by jar, posted 10-22-2017 11:06 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by jar, posted 10-23-2017 9:14 AM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29749
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 139 of 156 (822332)
10-23-2017 9:14 AM
Reply to: Message 138 by Phat
10-23-2017 8:16 AM


Re: Topic Resurrection...lets start slow.
Phat writes:

I looked up the definition of dogma because I had always imagined the term as a slight towards beliefs. I was actually surprised to learn that the term itself means the beliefs themselves incorporated into a culture by the club of choice.

Imagine that when you were becoming a teen, say 13-15 years old, you had been taught the meaning of dogma.

Then you would understand that there was YOUR Clubs Dogma but that other clubs had their own set of rules and beliefs.

Phat writes:

Hopefully, this thread will be educational. So tell me more about these supposed redactors.

I can't since all we have is the evidence that there was either additions or exclusion and no information about who or when. Sometimes, as in the case of Long Mark we can say it was before XYZ date since the long version is mentioned by ABC.

Phat writes:

Why has nearly every apologist and church pastor been willfully ignorant of the bare bones truth(if there is such an animal) about the scriptures they hold dear?

Maybe for the same reason most apologist and pastors don't encourage their members to actually read the Bible as a whole but instead take pieces parts like John 3:16 out of context and make it a Burma Shave Sign form of Theology.

They have a vested interest is discouraging Critical Thinking.

But I don't think they are ignorant of the facts, just willfully and utterly dishonest.

Let me try to illustrate.

You get upset when I tell you to Throw Jesus away.

Suppose I told you to Throw Ganesha away?

Suppose I told you to Throw Allah away?

The difference is only dogma. The each statement says the same thing but the reaction to each statement will depend on the hearers dogma. A Muslim will likely have no issue with the first two, a Hindu will likely have no issue with the first or last and you likely have no issue with the last two.

In Washington we have the National Cathedral. It is actually an Episcopal Cathedral. Yet there have been Buddhist services there and Muslim services there and Hindu services there and secular services there and Darth Vader there as well.

It all depends on whose ox gets gored. As long as it is not YOUR ox all is fine; except for the ox.

What is needed is to learn that they are all someones ox, someones path. Maybe not YOUR path but the path that others choose.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by Phat, posted 10-23-2017 8:16 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by Phat, posted 10-23-2017 9:39 AM jar has responded
 Message 141 by Phat, posted 10-23-2017 9:44 AM jar has not yet responded
 Message 145 by Phat, posted 10-24-2017 10:45 AM jar has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10225
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 140 of 156 (822334)
10-23-2017 9:39 AM
Reply to: Message 139 by jar
10-23-2017 9:14 AM


Born Again Dogma
Speaking of Dogma and of John 3, what is your take on Jesus conversation with Nicodemus?

NIV writes:

Jesus replied, "Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again." "How can someone be born when they are old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother's womb to be born!" Jesus answered, "Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit."

I noted the following commentary in Wiki:

Wiki writes:

A 19th-century source notes that the phrase was not mentioned by the other Evangelists, nor by the Apostles except Peter. "It was not regarded by any of the Evangelists but John of sufficient importance to record." It adds that without John, "we should hardly have known that it was necessary for one to be born again." This suggests that "the text and context was meant to apply to Nicodemus particularly, and not to the world.

Of course, I was supposedly born again, and the reason that the dogma has value to me is that I actually recall being changed nearly instantaneously. Perhaps there is another explanation for what actually happened to me.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by jar, posted 10-23-2017 9:14 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by jar, posted 10-23-2017 10:21 AM Phat has responded
 Message 143 by ringo, posted 10-23-2017 12:06 PM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10225
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 141 of 156 (822336)
10-23-2017 9:44 AM
Reply to: Message 139 by jar
10-23-2017 9:14 AM


Re: Topic Resurrection...lets start slow.
jar writes:

You get upset when I tell you to Throw Jesus away.

Suppose I told you to Throw Ganesha away?

Suppose I told you to Throw Allah away?

The difference is only dogma. The each statement says the same thing but the reaction to each statement will depend on the hearers dogma.

But this is why GDR gets upset with you. He likely would mention that were you a real Christian you would be true to your own dogma and never suggest throwing Jesus away. Just because we can study many paths does not preclude us from choosing one, after all. What am I missing?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by jar, posted 10-23-2017 9:14 AM jar has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29749
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 142 of 156 (822338)
10-23-2017 10:21 AM
Reply to: Message 140 by Phat
10-23-2017 9:39 AM


Re: Born Again Dogma
Phat writes:

Speaking of Dogma and of John 3, what is your take on Jesus conversation with Nicodemus?

As used in much of modern Christian Dogma it is simply another example of taking pieces parts out on context and another great example of redaction.

The full passage is ...

quote:
1: There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
2: The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
3: Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4: Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5: Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6: That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7: Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8: The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
9: Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
10: Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
11: Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
12: If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

... but usually just one line is pulled out of context and turned into a Proof Text.

But wait, there is more:

just as we saw after John 3:16, the POV changes from Jesus speaking to an offstage narrator, the Chorus in a Greek Tragedy and inserting additional material.

quote:
13: And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
14: And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Note "That whosoever believeth in him..." not "That whosoever believeth in me ..." These are editorial comments inserted by some redactor or editor and not quotations of what Jesus is supposed to have said.

The authors and redactors and editors of John are reactionaries, trying to change what they see as a revolution moving away from their perceived position.

And when seen in full context the whole idea of being "Born Again" loses much of the accept significance even within John. It is only when pulled out of context that it can be used as it so often used.

Phat writes:

Of course, I was supposedly born again, and the reason that the dogma has value to me is that I actually recall being changed nearly instantaneously.

Yet just as with Saul, you have not been able to point or explain any significant changes in personality or behavior or habits or traits.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by Phat, posted 10-23-2017 9:39 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by Phat, posted 10-25-2017 10:15 AM jar has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13965
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 143 of 156 (822346)
10-23-2017 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by Phat
10-23-2017 9:39 AM


Re: Born Again Dogma
Phat writes:

Of course, I was supposedly born again, and the reason that the dogma has value to me is that I actually recall being changed nearly instantaneously. Perhaps there is another explanation for what actually happened to me.


Recollections are notoriously unreliable. I can clearly recall the first school I (supposedly) went to, though it was demolished when I was two. I have no recollection at all of the actual first school I went to.

"Born again" is a phrase that has been co-opted by (some) Christians but it's a pretty common concept: "I feel like a new man," "It changed my life," etc. Life-changing moments are a dime a dozen.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by Phat, posted 10-23-2017 9:39 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by Phat, posted 10-24-2017 10:36 AM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10225
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 144 of 156 (822400)
10-24-2017 10:36 AM
Reply to: Message 143 by ringo
10-23-2017 12:06 PM


Re: Born Again Dogma
I was taught that though it is a one-time decision, it is a daily recommitment.

But jar is right that my long-term behavior never really changed...though it surely changed a lot in the short term. Being born again is overrated, in my opinion. The initial affirmation and declaration are commendable, but you guys are correct in that beliefs without actions are largely ceremonial and empty.

Be patient with me. I am still trying to grasp reality as it now exists vs events that have happened in the past. I am also trying to separate Christian dogma and teaching from the reality of the daily meaning.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by ringo, posted 10-23-2017 12:06 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by ringo, posted 10-24-2017 11:43 AM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10225
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 145 of 156 (822402)
10-24-2017 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 139 by jar
10-23-2017 9:14 AM


The Mindset Of Christian Leaders
jar,referring to CCoI leadership writes:

But I don't think they are ignorant of the facts, just willfully and utterly dishonest.

I cant imagine anyone being willfully dishonest, but maybe it is an actual brain disorder. I know that at times I will ignore certain evidence and stubbornly cling to what I need to be true, so I can see where you are coming from. The cognitive dissonance is at times uncomfortable.

I rationalize my actions by telling myself that all of the data is not yet in and that it is unhealthy to only listen to one point of view, but perhaps what you call willful dishonesty is seen by some more like denial. Is denying something actually the same as being willfully dishonest?

And let's get back to the reactionaries. These redactors.

They have a vested interest is discouraging Critical Thinking.
To be honest, sometimes I turn off my critical thinking because I feel that I need answers rather than endless questions or else I will never stand for anything.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by jar, posted 10-23-2017 9:14 AM jar has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13965
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 146 of 156 (822406)
10-24-2017 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 144 by Phat
10-24-2017 10:36 AM


Re: Born Again Dogma
Phat writes:

I was taught that though it is a one-time decision, it is a daily recommitment.


I think that attitude is part of the problem. Doing the right thing shouldn't be a "decision" or a "commitment". It should be a way of life.

You shouldn't have to "decide" not to hurt people. It should come naturally. And it does - but unfortunately some branches of Christianity emphasize "separateness" and try to train the innate goodness out of you.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by Phat, posted 10-24-2017 10:36 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by Phat, posted 10-25-2017 10:27 AM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10225
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 147 of 156 (822443)
10-25-2017 10:15 AM
Reply to: Message 142 by jar
10-23-2017 10:21 AM


Re: Born Again Dogma
jar writes:

The authors and redactors and editors of John are reactionaries, trying to change what they see as a revolution moving away from their perceived position.

Isn't that how it has always been in religion, though? Perhaps the questions that we need to ask ourselves is what our beliefs mean to ourselves, our neighbors, our country, and our world.

I'm in this whole soul-searching mode lately. I saw a National Geographic show called American Blackout, about an EMP attack which could ultimately kill 90% of Americans, and I thought of how fear and faith mysteriously intertwine and co-exist in modern culture divorced from actual reality.

The larger question in relation to this topic is how relevant the stories in the Bible are for us today in the world we live in today.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by jar, posted 10-23-2017 10:21 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by jar, posted 10-25-2017 10:37 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10225
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 148 of 156 (822445)
10-25-2017 10:27 AM
Reply to: Message 146 by ringo
10-24-2017 11:43 AM


Comfort The Afflicted
ringo writes:

Doing the right thing shouldn't be a "decision" or a "commitment". It should be a way of life.

Agreed, though you and I differ on what the right thing should be. On my way to work I pass several homeless guys with signs, one whom spins and twirls his sign and entertains the traffic...but, to be honest, I feel no compassion to give these guys any money. I'm more inclined to help out a customer who is a buck or so short on their order so that they won't have to put any food back.

I have no problem with helping others, however. Perhaps the homeless guys are different in your town...they certainly don't strike any chord of sympathy with me. Some of them we know even steal from our store.

An honest customer who pays yet who is short on change elicits more attention from me.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by ringo, posted 10-24-2017 11:43 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by ringo, posted 10-25-2017 3:19 PM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 151 by NoNukes, posted 10-26-2017 12:27 PM Phat has responded
 Message 153 by Tangle, posted 10-26-2017 12:58 PM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29749
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 149 of 156 (822447)
10-25-2017 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 147 by Phat
10-25-2017 10:15 AM


Re: Born Again Dogma
Phat writes:

jar writes:

The authors and redactors and editors of John are reactionaries, trying to change what they see as a revolution moving away from their perceived position.

Isn't that how it has always been in religion, though?

Yes.

And that is the lesson we need to learn. Religion needs to evolve. Jesus was a Jew. Paul was still a Jew but of the Jewish sect called Christians.

The Holy Spirit was an after thought added to the Nicene Creed.

Christmas and Easter and Pentecost are just evolved Jewish holidays which in turn were simply evolved harvest festivals.

There is no such thing as "The Right Religion"; only variations evolved from earlier examples.

Phat writes:

Perhaps the questions that we need to ask ourselves is what our beliefs mean to ourselves, our neighbors, our country, and our world.

Your beliefs are really of no importance or interest to anyone other than yourself. The questions that we need to ask ourselves is what our behavior means to ourselves, our neighbors, our country, and our world.

Throw God away.

Throw beliefs away.

Reality is.

Behaviors are.

When you drop down to eye level with a child they really don't care why you did it.

When you hold the door open for someone herding a passel of kids they really don't care why you did it.

When you put the shopping carts that were left in parking spaces back in the right place no one cares what beliefs led to that behavior.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by Phat, posted 10-25-2017 10:15 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13965
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 150 of 156 (822465)
10-25-2017 3:19 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by Phat
10-25-2017 10:27 AM


Re: Comfort The Afflicted
Phat writes:

I'm more inclined to help out a customer who is a buck or so short on their order so that they won't have to put any food back.


That way of helping is as valid as any other. You're lucky to have the opportunity.

Phat writes:

Perhaps the homeless guys are different in your town...they certainly don't strike any chord of sympathy with me.


Maybe you haven't been close enough to homeless yourself.

Phat writes:

Some of them we know even steal from our store.


I know for a fact that people have lied to me: One fellow asked me for bus fare and I didn't have any change; a minute later he got on a bus right in front of me and paid his fare. Maybe the customer that you help out is laughing all the way to his Cadillac too.

If they lie or steal, that's on them. If you refuse to help, if you feel no compassion, that's on you.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by Phat, posted 10-25-2017 10:27 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
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