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Author Topic:   The C.C.O.I. (Christian Cult Of Ignorance) and Willful Ignorance
Mal
Junior Member (Idle past 562 days)
Posts: 15
From: Stockholm
Joined: 07-09-2015


Message 617 of 670 (762571)
07-13-2015 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 614 by ringo
07-13-2015 12:51 PM


Re: Jesus is alive
Hi Ringo,

Like any other source of information, we test it against reality. We accept what matches and discount what doesn't.

I am not convinced that many people do that.

Mal. x


This message is a reply to:
 Message 614 by ringo, posted 07-13-2015 12:51 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 618 by ringo, posted 07-13-2015 1:14 PM Mal has not yet responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 12925
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 618 of 670 (762573)
07-13-2015 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 617 by Mal
07-13-2015 1:10 PM


Re: Jesus is alive
Mal writes:

I am not convinced that many people do that.


Of course THEY don't. That's why WE call THEM the Christian Cult of Ignorance.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 617 by Mal, posted 07-13-2015 1:10 PM Mal has not yet responded

  
Mal
Junior Member (Idle past 562 days)
Posts: 15
From: Stockholm
Joined: 07-09-2015


Message 619 of 670 (762574)
07-13-2015 1:15 PM
Reply to: Message 610 by Faith
07-13-2015 11:00 AM


Re: Jesus is alive
hi Faith

I was an atheist until my mid forties. I grew up in a nominally Christian society of course, even went to church as a child but didn't really understand or believe any of it and declared myself an atheist at age fifteen. I didn't truly believe until I was converted some thirty years later.

This does fit in with the theory very well. In a nominally Christian society I am sure you would be very aware of Jesus and the Bible. If you were brought up in a nominally Muslim society (if that exists), you would be aware of Muhammad, the Qur'an, and Allah.

Yes you do have to believe the Bible is the word of God, and God Himself gives us that recognition,

I hope God offers this recognition to all of us sometime in our lives.

Thank you.

Mal. x


This message is a reply to:
 Message 610 by Faith, posted 07-13-2015 11:00 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 624 by Faith, posted 07-13-2015 4:25 PM Mal has responded

    
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11251
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(4)
Message 620 of 670 (762580)
07-13-2015 1:24 PM
Reply to: Message 616 by Mal
07-13-2015 1:09 PM


Re: Jesus is alive
The way I read Jar's reply was that he is saying there's a great deal of problems with the text, so if it is 'full' of problems then why bother with it.

Well, in some cases people are just as much culturally a Christian as they are religiously a Christian.

There may be true incidents some where in the texts.

Still doesn't even matter that much. Whether or not the story of 'The Good Samaritan', for instance, every actually happened has nothing to do with the lessons we can learn from it.

Even when that story is a complete fabrication, we can still take a truthful lesson from it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 616 by Mal, posted 07-13-2015 1:09 PM Mal has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 623 by MrHambre, posted 07-13-2015 3:09 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 28695
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 621 of 670 (762581)
07-13-2015 1:27 PM
Reply to: Message 615 by Mal
07-13-2015 1:00 PM


Re: Jesus is alive
Great. So let's move on.

Mal writes:

If the Bible contains errors, falsehoods (lies?), contradictions, and irrelevancies, then is that what it really says?

If the Bible contains errors, falsehoods, contradictions, and irrelevancies as you say, then why believe anything that is in it?

Why put any faith (*_*) in a book that you believe is in such poor condition?

Let's begin at the beginning, with stories common to all the different canons, the two mutually exclusive creation myths found in Genesis 1 and in Genesis 2&3.

First, all of the evidence indicated that the latter tale, the Genesis 2&3 tale is much older than the story found in Genesis 1 and that they were written by two different cultures.

The order of creation, method of creation, even the descriptions of the God character are entirely different and mutually exclusive. If one is factually true then the other is by definition, false. This is so obvious that there really must be some explanation of why the editors and redactors though it necessary to include both tales in the canon.

Since the two tales are so dramatically and patently different there must be some other purpose for their inclusion. There are several possibilities, politics or different traditions come to mind but there is another maybe even more compelling possibility that also explains why the redactors placed the younger Gen 1 tale before the older Gen 2&3 tale. In all possibilities the creation myths and descriptions of the God character are just plot devices the authors used to get their points across.

The younger Genesis 1 tale has two purposes, it establishes the sacred week and the Sabbath and also presents an aspect of GOD, an overarching figure that is the creator of all that is seen and unseen. The older tale found in Genesis 2&3 is a "Just So" story that explains the social customs of the people, why we fear snakes, why we have to work and farm instead of just being hunter gatherers, why childbirth seems more painful for humans than other animals, why we have a "morals based society" with right and wrong behavior and most importantly, why women should be subject to men. But it also presents an additional image of GOD, a personal god unlike the aloof and separate god of Gen 1, a god that is very human, that learns on the job, is unsure, afraid but personable, directly interacting with the creation.

So while it is obvious that both tales are factually wrong, they do serve a purpose and give us a picture of the relationship they felt they had with God as well as a picture of the mores and culture of the periods.

Still with me?


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 615 by Mal, posted 07-13-2015 1:00 PM Mal has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 626 by Mal, posted 07-15-2015 8:03 AM jar has responded

  
ramoss
Member
Posts: 3016
Joined: 08-11-2004
Member Rating: 7.0


Message 622 of 670 (762584)
07-13-2015 2:28 PM
Reply to: Message 588 by Faith
07-09-2015 4:03 PM


Re: Jesus is alive
I find when someone uses the 'spiritual intuition' or 'discernment' argument are people who just are willfully ignorant and are using deflection.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 588 by Faith, posted 07-09-2015 4:03 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
MrHambre
Member (Idle past 18 days)
Posts: 1493
From: Framingham, MA, USA
Joined: 06-23-2003


(1)
Message 623 of 670 (762586)
07-13-2015 3:09 PM
Reply to: Message 620 by New Cat's Eye
07-13-2015 1:24 PM


Cat Sci writes:

Well, in some cases people are just as much culturally a Christian as they are religiously a Christian.


I'd say in most cases, the cultural part is much more important than the religious one, even among the devout.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 620 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-13-2015 1:24 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 24495
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 624 of 670 (762589)
07-13-2015 4:25 PM
Reply to: Message 619 by Mal
07-13-2015 1:15 PM


Re: Jesus is alive
I was an atheist until my mid forties. I grew up in a nominally Christian society of course, even went to church as a child but didn't really understand or believe any of it and declared myself an atheist at age fifteen. I didn't truly believe until I was converted some thirty years later.

This does fit in with the theory very well. In a nominally Christian society I am sure you would be very aware of Jesus and the Bible. If you were brought up in a nominally Muslim society (if that exists), you would be aware of Muhammad, the Qur'an, and Allah.

Yes you do have to believe the Bible is the word of God, and God Himself gives us that recognition,

I hope God offers this recognition to all of us sometime in our lives.

If you really hope that, if you really want to recognize the Bible as God's word, you don't have to wait for God to transform you, all you have to do is decide to believe it and act on it. If you did that I have no doubt God would follow up with the supernatural part of it.

Growing up in a Christian society means very little about what you end up believing. I knew of Jesus of course but had no idea what made Him our Savior, how He'd died for our sins and so on, the basic gospel in other words. I'd missed that completely in my early church experience and had to learn it all from scratch when I did become a believer. My parents never went to church and never talked about God or Christ.

During my thirties, in the Seventies, I had friends who had joined every kind of Eastern religion and cult, but none who had become a Christian. One became a Zen Buddhist priestess and was still practicing that when I was in touch with her a few years ago. Others had joined this or that organization of some Hindu guru or other. At one of my favorite hangouts I met people who were followers of the Seth Books, Urantia, A Course in Miracles, a channeled entity whose name I forget, and I met professional astrologers and tarot card readers. Into the eighties I did meet one Christian. He was quite the unusual thing. I think he prayed for me.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 619 by Mal, posted 07-13-2015 1:15 PM Mal has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 625 by Tangle, posted 07-13-2015 4:31 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 629 by Mal, posted 07-16-2015 6:09 PM Faith has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4550
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 625 of 670 (762590)
07-13-2015 4:31 PM
Reply to: Message 624 by Faith
07-13-2015 4:25 PM


Re: Jesus is alive
faith writes:

Growing up in a Christian society means very little about what you end up believing.

That is so obviously wrong it takes my breath away. It's one of the few obvious and provable truisms of these discussions.

Gowing up in a Christian society to Christian parents virtually guarantees that you will not become a Hindu. And vice versa.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 624 by Faith, posted 07-13-2015 4:25 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Mal
Junior Member (Idle past 562 days)
Posts: 15
From: Stockholm
Joined: 07-09-2015


Message 626 of 670 (762743)
07-15-2015 8:03 AM
Reply to: Message 621 by jar
07-13-2015 1:27 PM


Re: Jesus is alive
Hi Jar

I am with you 100%

Nothing controversial so far.

Mal.x


This message is a reply to:
 Message 621 by jar, posted 07-13-2015 1:27 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 627 by jar, posted 07-15-2015 9:09 AM Mal has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 28695
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 627 of 670 (762746)
07-15-2015 9:09 AM
Reply to: Message 626 by Mal
07-15-2015 8:03 AM


Re: Jesus is alive
If the Bible contains errors, falsehoods (lies?), contradictions, and irrelevancies, then is that what it really says?

If the Bible contains errors, falsehoods, contradictions, and irrelevancies as you say, then why believe anything that is in it?

Why put any faith (*_*) in a book that you believe is in such poor condition?

Great. Glad it makes at least a little sense.

So the Bible, whichever canon is being considered is a collection of writings done by humans of several evolving belief systems that were later selected by other humans, edited by other humans and compiled by other humans.

Other examples of human involvement are the two mutually exclusive flood myths but this time they were not even kept as separate stories as with Genesis 1 and Genesis 2&3. The two flood myths were all mushed together with no indication of why or clear purpose. That happened fairly early and it was never dealt with so we have to ask "Why?"

There are other examples. The Exodus tale and Joshuah almost certainly never happened as described while other stories like Job and Jonah are clearly fictional. Ruth stands out as an anomaly as well.

Then there are the books that deal with those things that define societies, the gradual evolution for a confederacy of family clans into political units and then nations which were then destroyed and the people exiled where a concept of a single religion evolved that then clashed with the religions that had evolved among those who were not exiled.

There are parts that dealt with the evolving legal codes and with those behaviors and identities that set the Hebrews apart as a separate people.

So the picture we should get from the various Bibles and Bible stories is one of evolution, of changing societies, beliefs, behavior and mythos. It should reinforce our understanding of the great periods of time as well as the contrasting and often conflicting religious beliefs that were the Hebrews. (by the way, even a short study of the Talmud should be more than enough to dispel any idea that Judaism was ever a monolithic religion)

Are you still with me? Is this making any sense?


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 626 by Mal, posted 07-15-2015 8:03 AM Mal has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 628 by Mal, posted 07-16-2015 5:55 PM jar has responded

  
Mal
Junior Member (Idle past 562 days)
Posts: 15
From: Stockholm
Joined: 07-09-2015


Message 628 of 670 (762857)
07-16-2015 5:55 PM
Reply to: Message 627 by jar
07-15-2015 9:09 AM


Re: Jesus is alive
I am still with you sir.

Still nothing surprising.

Thank you for taking little steps with me.

Mal.x


This message is a reply to:
 Message 627 by jar, posted 07-15-2015 9:09 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 630 by jar, posted 07-16-2015 8:18 PM Mal has responded

    
Mal
Junior Member (Idle past 562 days)
Posts: 15
From: Stockholm
Joined: 07-09-2015


Message 629 of 670 (762858)
07-16-2015 6:09 PM
Reply to: Message 624 by Faith
07-13-2015 4:25 PM


Re: Jesus is alive
Thankyou so much Faith for your reply.

If you really hope that, if you really want to recognize the Bible as God's word, you don't have to wait for God to transform you, all you have to do is decide to believe it and act on it. If you did that I have no doubt God would follow up with the supernatural part of it.

What if I were to be told by a Muslim to read to recognize the Qur'an as God's word, and all I had to do was to believe it and act on it, and if I did this then Allah would follow up with the supernatural part of it? Could that work as well.

I just think maybe humans can convince themselves anything is true if they try hard enough, and not everyone who is convinced they have the Truth can be correct.

I respect your answer and I am happy this has worked for you.

Growing up in a Christian society means very little about what you end up believing. I knew of Jesus of course but had no idea what made Him our Savior, how He'd died for our sins and so on, the basic gospel in other words. I'd missed that completely in my early church experience and had to learn it all from scratch when I did become a believer. My parents never went to church and never talked about God or Christ.

But, this still is in line with the theory, you DID grow up with some contact with Christianity.

One became a Zen Buddhist priestess and was still practicing that when I was in touch with her a few years ago.

Perhaps she has found the Truth?

So far here at EvC I have read posts from many different people, all appear to be equally convinced that they are correct.

Your posts are very convincing that you have found the Truth. But, it does appear that you have had an experience that many others have not.

Thankyou again for taking the time to reply.

Mal. x


This message is a reply to:
 Message 624 by Faith, posted 07-13-2015 4:25 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 631 by Faith, posted 07-16-2015 9:34 PM Mal has not yet responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 28695
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 630 of 670 (762863)
07-16-2015 8:18 PM
Reply to: Message 628 by Mal
07-16-2015 5:55 PM


Re: Jesus is alive
Great.

So the Old Testament is a look at the evolving creation called Judaism and reflects many of the challenges, conflicts and differences of something as many faceted as Judaism. It contains fiction, tradition, myth but also laws, social mores and the basics that were important to those societies and eras and reflect their changing views about their relationships with each other and with the societies they came in contact with and their evolving views of their relationship with God.

The New Testament has the similarities of being works written by and edited by and redacted by and canonized by other unknown people over several hundred years. Like the Old Testament it evolved but the evolution was much faster, less than 500 years. It also was created during a period of relative stability, when there was but one super power in the known world and not the three to five competing super powers that were the norm during the evolution of the Old Testament.

There is more of a "single purposefulness" to the New Testament; it documents the creation of first a new Jewish sect (Jesus was never a Christian) and then the evolution of that sect into a separate religion. The evidence of evolution is still everywhere, the Synoptic Gospels show evolution and cross pollination while the later Gospel of John show definite reactionary attempts to redefine both the religion and the character "Jesus". Other great examples are the evolution of the Great Commission over time as well as the evolution of the tale of Paul's Road to Damascus experience. There is the evidence of the necessity to change the whole major focus from a short term apocalyptic cult into a long term social program.

If you are still with me I will move on to why I believe and am a Christian.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 628 by Mal, posted 07-16-2015 5:55 PM Mal has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 635 by Mal, posted 07-17-2015 3:10 PM jar has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 24495
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 631 of 670 (762867)
07-16-2015 9:34 PM
Reply to: Message 629 by Mal
07-16-2015 6:09 PM


Re: Jesus is alive
Well, I suppose you are right, even the Koran can be used to prove itself. How about the facts, though, that it pretends to be an addition or correction to the Bible while getting many of the Biblical personalities mixed up with each other, insisting God has no Son when the Bible says He does, calling Jesus a prophet when the Bible identifies Him as God, renaming God as "Allah" which is the former name of the Arabic moon god while the Bible identifies God over and over as Jehovah (I Am that I Am, or the self-existent One or the Uncreated God) and so on, besides clearly advocating that Muslims do a good work when they kill Jews and Christians. I'm sure the devil nevertheless creates feelings and proofs for his Islamic invention so I can't blame people who don't know the true God for falling for it.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 629 by Mal, posted 07-16-2015 6:09 PM Mal has not yet responded

    
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