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Author Topic:   Buzsaw's Belief Statement
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 16 of 59 (345288)
08-30-2006 11:03 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by ringo
08-27-2006 11:25 AM


Ringo writes:

So you agree that the idea of a FallTM is nonsensical and the idea of original sin is a cop-out.

(I don't know if there's ever been a real discussion of the FallTM during my time at EvC. FallistsTM tend to run away from Bible discussions as if the DevilTM himself was chasing them.)

If you can agree that Adam's original sin and the resulting curse by God on him, his wife, the plants and Satan, et al equals fall, you can agree that it's all Biblical. Whether you choose to accept the account as historical is another matter.

Ringo writes:

That's what I thought.

In two hundred years, when the Himmelfarbians come to prominence, I suppose Bible "prophecy" will demonize them instead.

How does that diminish the significance of the Islam/antichrist hypothesis?

Ringo writes:

The problem is with the "young" part - it completely fails to accept reality. We can see the reality of an old universe and old creatures just by looking at the evidence. That's why a "young" scenario of any kind is a complete non-starter.

I don't accept the dating methods of the creatures so we'll have to agree to disagree on that part.

Ringo writes:

According to Genesis, God has only "worked" for six days of His life.

Genesis isn't the only account of God's work. It says he rested on the 7th day pertaining to work on earth. He's been working ever since according to the rest of the book on the earth. Does he still rest every 7th from working on tiny planet earth? Nobody knows, but don't forget that this planet is a nothing but a microspeck in God's universe and only this microspect planet has the 7th day rest. Only God knows about all the rest of his work relative to each of the countless things in his universe. Imo, for you to say he's done nothing since makes no sense atol.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28
This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by ringo, posted 08-27-2006 11:25 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by ringo, posted 08-31-2006 12:23 AM Buzsaw has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13965
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 17 of 59 (345315)
08-31-2006 12:23 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Buzsaw
08-30-2006 11:03 PM


Buzsaw writes:

If you can agree that Adam's original sin and the resulting curse by God on him, his wife, the plants and Satan, et al equals fall....

No, I certainly can't agree to that.

Whether you choose to accept the account as historical is another matter.

I do accept the account as "historical" - in the sense that it's an explanation for why things are the way they are. It's the status quo, not a "fall".

In two hundred years, when the Himmelfarbians come to prominence, I suppose Bible "prophecy" will demonize them instead.

How does that diminish the significance of the Islam/antichrist hypothesis?

In the same way that your hypothesis diminishes the Napoleon hypothesis - by making it totally obsolete. Two hundred years from now, the fulfillment of prophecy will still not be complete and the "Muslim menace" will have been forgotten.

I don't accept the dating methods of the creatures....

Unfortunately, that damages your credibility in other areas. If you had done your homework, you would know that the "young creatures" hypothesis is false.

So how can we trust the homework you've done on prophecy?

Imo, for you to say he's done nothing since makes no sense atol.

Context, my man. :)

You said:

quote:
The difference is that I only have the creatures as young whereas YEC's generally have the whole universe as young. That, imo, is just nutty thinking and leaves God with nothing around him and nothing to do except for the last six milleniums. Message 7

You're the one who claimed that YEC leaves God with "nothing to do". I only pointed out that that's what Genesis says. I didn't make any claims for the whole Bible.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Buzsaw, posted 08-30-2006 11:03 PM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Buzsaw, posted 08-31-2006 10:30 AM ringo has responded

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 59 (345395)
08-31-2006 10:30 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by ringo
08-31-2006 12:23 AM


Ringo writes:

No, I certainly can't agree to that.

Why not when that's what the text wording says plain and simple.

Ringo writes:

I do accept the account as "historical" - in the sense that it's an explanation for why things are the way they are. It's the status quo, not a "fall".

You didn't respond to my point that the curse clearly implies a fall. The curse lowered the status and life quality of mankind. That equals a fall.

Ringo writes:

In the same way that your hypothesis diminishes the Napoleon hypothesis - by making it totally obsolete. Two hundred years from now, the fulfillment of prophecy will still not be complete and the "Muslim menace" will have been forgotten.

The only thing you have right is that in 200 years the memace will be history. That's because the end times events will have ushered in the Biblical prophesied millenial messianic kingdom. :cool:

Ringo writes:

Unfortunately, that damages your credibility in other areas. If you had done your homework, you would know that the "young creatures" hypothesis is false.

So how can we trust the homework you've done on prophecy?

Not when you factor in the reasons for my rejecting the dating methods which is another topic.

Ringo writes:

Context, my man.
You said:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The difference is that I only have the creatures as young whereas YEC's generally have the whole universe as young. That, imo, is just nutty thinking and leaves God with nothing around him and nothing to do except for the last six milleniums. Message 7
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You're the one who claimed that YEC leaves God with "nothing to do". I only pointed out that that's what Genesis says. I didn't make any claims for the whole Bible.

You're cheating by spin. My statement clearly left God with an old universe intact forever and only the planet based creatures as young. You're shabily spun up strawman doesn't cut the mustard.

Sagasiously submit sensible substance so substantiated statements signify significant soundness.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28
This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by ringo, posted 08-31-2006 12:23 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by ringo, posted 08-31-2006 10:54 AM Buzsaw has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13965
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 19 of 59 (345400)
08-31-2006 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Buzsaw
08-31-2006 10:30 AM


You go from:

... that's what the text wording says plain and simple.

to:

... the curse clearly implies a fall.

Which is it? Is there a "clear" implication of a fall?
Or does the text wording say plainly and simply that there was a fall?

The curse lowered the status and life quality of mankind.

As I said, the story explains the status and life quality of mankind. To me, it doesn't mean there was a change. The "curse" is the status quo, which has always been.

But, as I have said in other threads, I find it odd that anybody would think a gain of the knowledge of good and evil could be a "fall". I think it's a fine trade off for a little hard work, pain in childbirth, etc.

A gain in knowledge is a "climb" to any but those who prefer ignorance. :)

... in 200 years the memace will be history. That's because the end times events will have ushered in the Biblical prophesied millenial messianic kingdom.

You're a little too cocky about pinning down the date - sign of a false prophet. Remind me not to stand too close to you in a thunderstrom. ;)

You're shabily spun up strawman doesn't cut the mustard.

I leave the mustard-cutting judgement to the intelligent members of the board. If you want to crow about substance, provide some. :)


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Buzsaw, posted 08-31-2006 10:30 AM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Buzsaw, posted 09-01-2006 12:43 AM ringo has responded

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 20 of 59 (345610)
09-01-2006 12:43 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by ringo
08-31-2006 10:54 AM


Ringo writes:

Which is it? Is there a "clear" implication of a fall?
Or does the text wording say plainly and simply that there was a fall?

OK, clear implication would be the more proper term. However "fall" is simply a description of the effect of the curse. The serpents fell short of long legs. Adam and eve fell from the easy life status to laborers. They both fell from imortality to mortality. They both fell the garden utopia. This was a catastrophic fall whether the word fall was in the text or not.

Ringo writes:

As I said, the story explains the status and life quality of mankind. To me, it doesn't mean there was a change. The "curse" is the status quo, which has always been.

How can you possibly seriously argue that all of the above and more were the status quo from what they previously enjoyed?

Ringo writes:

But, as I have said in other threads, I find it odd that anybody would think a gain of the knowledge of good and evil could be a "fall". I think it's a fine trade off for a little hard work, pain in childbirth, etc.

A gain in knowledge is a "climb" to any but those who prefer ignorance.

Knowledge does not necessarily do anything for the status of anyone regarding anything in life. You can fall into a very deep pit to die having been the most knowledgeable person alive.

Ringo writes:

You're a little too cocky about pinning down the date - sign of a false prophet. Remind me not to stand too close to you in a thunderstrom.

Not cocky atol. I assemble all the data and go with it for the hypothesis as they do in science. If I'm cocky, so are they. :laugh:


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28
This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by ringo, posted 08-31-2006 10:54 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by ringo, posted 09-01-2006 1:14 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded
 Message 22 by jar, posted 09-01-2006 9:51 AM Buzsaw has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13965
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 21 of 59 (345617)
09-01-2006 1:14 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by Buzsaw
09-01-2006 12:43 AM


Buzsaw writes:

Adam and eve fell from the easy life status to laborers.

It's not a "fall" from a life of sloth to the dignity of honest labour.

They both fell from imortality to mortality.

There is no indication that they ever had immortality to lose.

How can you possibly seriously argue that all of the above and more were the status quo from what they previously enjoyed?

What they previously enjoyed? They were layabouts. :D

The knowledge of good and evil gave them worth.

Knowledge does not necessarily do anything for the status of anyone regarding anything in life.

"Status" has nothing to do with it. Knowledge (and maturity) has inherent value.

I assemble all the data and go with it for the hypothesis as they do in science.

Now that's funny, :laugh:

You ignore all the evidence about dating and you have the gall to compare your methods with science. :laugh:


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Buzsaw, posted 09-01-2006 12:43 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Archer Opteryx, posted 09-02-2006 2:50 AM ringo has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29758
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 22 of 59 (345691)
09-01-2006 9:51 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by Buzsaw
09-01-2006 12:43 AM


OK, clear implication would be the more proper term. However "fall" is simply a description of the effect of the curse. The serpents fell short of long legs. Adam and eve fell from the easy life status to laborers. They both fell from imortality to mortality. They both fell the garden utopia. This was a catastrophic fall whether the word fall was in the text or not.

How can it be a Fall?

They were not immortal. The only thing that might have made them live forever would have been eating from the Tree of Life.

Adam and Eve went from being animals to being human, from being foragers and grazers like the pigs and mice to being food producers.

They went from being ignorant animals to adults that knew right from wrong.

What Fall?

Knowledge does not necessarily do anything for the status of anyone regarding anything in life. You can fall into a very deep pit to die having been the most knowledgeable person alive.

No, but ignorance does.

Edited by jar, : k-->g


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Buzsaw, posted 09-01-2006 12:43 AM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Buzsaw, posted 09-01-2006 9:43 PM jar has responded

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 23 of 59 (345867)
09-01-2006 9:43 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by jar
09-01-2006 9:51 AM


jar writes:

How can it be a Fall?

They were not immortal. The only thing that might have made them live forever would have been eating from the Tree of Life.

They were immortal so long as they had the tree of life. That translates into immortality in that they had the capacity to live forever whereas after the fall they lost that capacity. Had they not sinned/fallen/eaten of the forbidden tree, they would have had the tree of life forever . After the fall death was certain except for Enoch and Elijah who God raptured up before death could claim them.

jar writes:

Adam and Eve went from being animals to being human, from being foragers and grazers like the pigs and mice to being food producers.

They went from being ignorant animals to adults that knew right from wrong.

What Fall?

There is no implication at all in the text that would place their intelligence on the level of brute beasts. The implication is that they only knew to do good and no evil thought or desire could program into their thinking. They enjoyed regular fellowship and communication with Jehovah their maker, being made in his likeness unlike the beasts.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28
This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by jar, posted 09-01-2006 9:51 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by jar, posted 09-01-2006 10:00 PM Buzsaw has responded
 Message 25 by Omnivorous, posted 09-01-2006 10:13 PM Buzsaw has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29758
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 24 of 59 (345870)
09-01-2006 10:00 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Buzsaw
09-01-2006 9:43 PM


There is no implication at all in the text that would place their intelligence on the level of brute beasts. The implication is that they only knew to do good and no evil thought or desire could program into their thinking.

Couple misconceptions in there buz. First, no one said anything about their intellegence. I said they were ignorant. Two different things.

Second, it is ABSOLUTELY false that they knew only how to do good. The Bible is quite clear on that, they simply knew no difference between right and wrong, good and evil.

Sorry buz but the Bible just doesn't say what you claim.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Buzsaw, posted 09-01-2006 9:43 PM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Buzsaw, posted 09-01-2006 10:42 PM jar has responded

  
Omnivorous
Member (Idle past 580 days)
Posts: 3808
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


Message 25 of 59 (345875)
09-01-2006 10:13 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Buzsaw
09-01-2006 9:43 PM


I'm confused, Buz.

As a good Baptist boy, I was taught that after A&E ate from the Tree of Knowledge of G&E, God banished them from the Garden so they wouldn't eat from the Tree of Life and so live forever.

Are you just saying that eventualy they could have eaten from that Tree and become immortal, but hadn't yet, and through banishment from the Garden lost that opportunity?

In that case, isn't it simply true to say they were not immortal?

In fact, A&E never had immortality and so did not lose it.

Edited by Omnivorous, : typo


God gave us the earth. We have dominion over the plants, the animals, the trees. God said, ‘Earth is yours. Take it. Rape it. It’s yours.’
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Buzsaw, posted 09-01-2006 9:43 PM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Buzsaw, posted 09-01-2006 10:51 PM Omnivorous has not yet responded

    
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 26 of 59 (345886)
09-01-2006 10:42 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by jar
09-01-2006 10:00 PM


jar writes:

Couple misconceptions in there buz. First, no one said anything about their intellegence. I said they were ignorant. Two different things.

You said they were ignorant animals. The only thing they were ignorant of that we know of was knowledge of good and evil which only God and the higher entities knew. To equate them to ignorant beasts is certainly not what is implied in the text.

jar writes:

Second, it is ABSOLUTELY false that they knew only how to do good. The Bible is quite clear on that, they simply knew no difference between right and wrong, good and evil.

You're right. Now that you mention it they did know to disobey relative to the forbidden tree. However imo, the implication is that had they not eaten of the tree, they would not have had knowledge/desire/nature to do evil. It was that act which God warned of relative to the death curse.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28
This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by jar, posted 09-01-2006 10:00 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by jar, posted 09-01-2006 10:50 PM Buzsaw has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29758
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 27 of 59 (345887)
09-01-2006 10:50 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Buzsaw
09-01-2006 10:42 PM


You said they were ignorant animals. The only thing they were ignorant of that we know of was knowledge of good and evil which only God and the higher entities knew. To equate them to ignorant beasts is certainly not what is implied in the text.

Really buz? How were they any different than a pet dog? They were nothing but foraging animals, with NO knowledge of Good or Evil.

How were they any different than a faithful dog that wandered around, or the cow that comes to the fence?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Buzsaw, posted 09-01-2006 10:42 PM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Buzsaw, posted 09-01-2006 11:04 PM jar has responded

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 28 of 59 (345889)
09-01-2006 10:51 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Omnivorous
09-01-2006 10:13 PM


Omni writes:

I'm confused, Buz.
As a good Baptist boy, I was taught that after A&E ate from the Tree of Knowledge of G&E, God banished them from the Garden so they wouldn't eat from the Tree of Life and so live forever.

That's correct. What statement of mine says otherwise?

Omni writes:

Are you just saying that eventualy they could have eaten from that Tree and become immortal, but hadn't yet, and through banishment from the Garden lost that opportunity?

In that case, isn't it simply true to say they were not immortal?

No. They could have went on forever having not eaten of the forbidden tree. Their immortality would remain intact so long as they left it alone. Nothing is implied that they must disobey and eat of the tree to become mortal beings, falling from imortality.

In fact, A&E never had immortality and so did not lose it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Omnivorous, posted 09-01-2006 10:13 PM Omnivorous has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by jar, posted 09-01-2006 10:58 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29758
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 29 of 59 (345894)
09-01-2006 10:58 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Buzsaw
09-01-2006 10:51 PM


No. They could have went on forever having not eaten of the forbidden tree.

That just makes God a fool and liar, Buz. If it wasn't the Tree of Life that would have conferred immortality then why was God afraid that they would eat of it. They didn't get thrown out for the garden for eating the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil but because God feared they would eat from the Tree of Life.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Buzsaw, posted 09-01-2006 10:51 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 30 of 59 (345897)
09-01-2006 11:04 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by jar
09-01-2006 10:50 PM


Please reread me carefully and go figure. You're one of the intelligent creatures. :cool: Copy and paste the specific reasons I gave for my position and refute if you can.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by jar, posted 09-01-2006 10:50 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by jar, posted 09-01-2006 11:19 PM Buzsaw has responded

  
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