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Author Topic:   The "Digital Code" of DNA
Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2968 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 76 of 143 (409951)
07-12-2007 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 75 by ringo
07-12-2007 11:20 AM


Re: Code above-and-beyond DNA
The "code" is simply a human construct used to help understand the structure. It's simpler to write a short code-word than to draw the whole structure of the molecule. That's all the "code" is. It isn't something inherent in the molecule itself.

Wrong! If DNA is not inherently capable of storing digital code, wherein the nucleotides A, C, T, and G serve as digits, then how do you explain genetic mutation by way of single nucleotide polymorphisms (SNPs)?

—HM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by ringo, posted 07-12-2007 11:20 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member
Posts: 13314
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 77 of 143 (409953)
07-12-2007 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by Fosdick
07-12-2007 11:32 AM


Re: Code above-and-beyond DNA
Hoot Mon writes:

If DNA is not inherently capable of storing digital code....

I didn't say that. I said that the "code" is the structure of the molecule.

... how do you explain genetic mutation by way of single nucleotide polymorphisms (SNPs)?

Mutations consist of atoms - and/or groups of atoms - "moving" to a different location on the structure, don't they? How does that have anything to do with "digits"?


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Fosdick, posted 07-12-2007 11:32 AM Fosdick has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by Fosdick, posted 07-12-2007 11:56 AM ringo has responded

  
Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2968 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 78 of 143 (409955)
07-12-2007 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by ringo
07-12-2007 11:43 AM


Re: Code above-and-beyond DNA?
I said that the "code" is the structure of the molecule.

Of course it is, physically, but your point is quite silly. The same thing could be said about a written language: 'Words are in the structure of the sentence, or letters are in the structure of the word.' What does that mean? Of course they are. And of course you have to have something physical to hold a code. No one's saying that genetic codes fly around on their own. Can we get past that now?

—HM


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 Message 77 by ringo, posted 07-12-2007 11:43 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-12-2007 12:04 PM Fosdick has responded
 Message 80 by ringo, posted 07-12-2007 12:05 PM Fosdick has responded

    
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11538
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 79 of 143 (409956)
07-12-2007 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Fosdick
07-12-2007 11:56 AM


Re: Code above-and-beyond DNA?
The same thing could be said about a written language: 'Words are in the structure of the sentence, or letters are in the structure of the word.'

And words are meaningless unless we apply a meaning to them in the same way that the DNA "code" is meaningless until we apply a meaning to it.

The function of the code is independent of any "meaning" because its all just chemistry. There is no "code" necessary.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Fosdick, posted 07-12-2007 11:56 AM Fosdick has responded

Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member
Posts: 13314
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 80 of 143 (409957)
07-12-2007 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Fosdick
07-12-2007 11:56 AM


Re: Code above-and-beyond DNA?
Hoot Mon writes:

No one's saying that genetic codes fly around on their own.

Read the OP. That's the only question here.

If you agree that there is no "digital code" except for the chemistry of the molecule, then we're done.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Fosdick, posted 07-12-2007 11:56 AM Fosdick has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by Fosdick, posted 07-12-2007 12:41 PM ringo has responded

  
Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2968 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 81 of 143 (409961)
07-12-2007 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by ringo
07-12-2007 12:05 PM


Re: Code above-and-beyond DNA?
kuresu, in his OP, said this:

quote:
Anywho, in the previous thread, unless I'm grossly misrepresenting Hoot Mon's argument, he argues that:

DNA/RNA is a "digital" code. And, while this code is an intrinsic property of DNA, it is not the result of any chemical properties that we know of today. This, he argues, is an argument against any hypothesis of abiogenesis, because he just can't see how this "code" arose. Nevermind the argument of incredulity present.



There is a important inaccuracy in kuresu statement. It's with the words "chemical properties." If you substituted "chemical principles" for "chedmical properties" then the quote would correctly reflect my position:

"DNA/RNA is a "digital" code. And, while this code is an intrinsic property of DNA, it is not the result of any chemical principles that we know of today."

Clearly, the truth is that there are no know chemical principles that account for the evolution of a digital genetic code.

And kuresu also stated in his OP:

quote:
I argue, as do many others:

DNA/RNA are just chemicals. Not something more thanks to this "digital code". This is not a hinderance to any hypothesis of abiogenesis.



I disagree. Nucleic acids are the only molecules we know of that hold digital genetic code. If this is not remarkable and unique in nature then I don't know what is. I believe that abiogenesis must have included the evolution of a digital genetic code. If it did not, then I would have to ask how anything ever got inherited. Without genetic heritability it's hard to imagine how abiogenesis could have taken place.

—HM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by ringo, posted 07-12-2007 12:05 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by ringo, posted 07-12-2007 12:51 PM Fosdick has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 13314
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 82 of 143 (409964)
07-12-2007 12:51 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by Fosdick
07-12-2007 12:41 PM


Re: Code above-and-beyond DNA?
Hoot Mon writes:

Clearly, the truth is that there are no know chemical principles that account for the evolution of a digital genetic code.

That isn't clear at all. I have asked you repeatedly, over several threads, to back up that statement. Kindly show us, once and for all, something that is not accounted for by known chemical principles.

Nucleic acids are the only molecules we know of that hold digital genetic code.

False, as I have explained repeatedly. All molecules hold the same code - the principles of chemical bonding.

I believe that abiogenesis must have included the evolution of a digital genetic code. If it did not, then I would have to ask how anything ever got inherited.

All molecules "inherit" the same principles of chemical bonding.
The "code" is nothing more than that.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Fosdick, posted 07-12-2007 12:41 PM Fosdick has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by Fosdick, posted 07-12-2007 1:09 PM ringo has responded

  
Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2968 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 83 of 143 (409965)
07-12-2007 12:54 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by New Cat's Eye
07-12-2007 12:04 PM


Re: Code above-and-beyond DNA?
CS wrote:

And words are meaningless unless we apply a meaning to them in the same way that the DNA "code" is meaningless until we apply a meaning to it.

Non sequitur. Who said anything about "meaning" anyway? What kind of meaning do you mean? Synatactical meaning? Onlological meaning? Poetic meaning?

The function of the code is independent of any "meaning" because its all just chemistry. There is no "code" necessary.

Well, yes. But you brought up "meaning."

btw: There is a digital genetic code, and it is necessary.

—HM


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 Message 79 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-12-2007 12:04 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
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Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2968 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 84 of 143 (409966)
07-12-2007 1:09 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by ringo
07-12-2007 12:51 PM


Re: Code above-and-beyond DNA?
All molecules hold the same code - the principles of chemical bonding.

Whew! You still cannot differentiate codes from bondings.

All molecules "inherit" the same principles of chemical bonding.
The "code" is nothing more than that.

I'm afriad you are missing out on something quite interesting. If chemical bonding is all there is to it, then why should the order of the bondings have any relevance to the function of a DNA molecule? By way of your reasoning, a DNA molecule could be ordered in any way and not impair its function...because all the principles of chemical bonding are operating and satisfied.

—HM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by ringo, posted 07-12-2007 12:51 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by ringo, posted 07-12-2007 1:25 PM Fosdick has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 13314
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 85 of 143 (409967)
07-12-2007 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by Fosdick
07-12-2007 1:09 PM


Re: Code above-and-beyond DNA?
Hoot Mon writes:

You still cannot differentiate codes from bondings.

If there's a difference, show it.

If chemical bonding is all there is to it, then why should the order of the bondings have any relevance to the function of a DNA molecule?

Because the "order of the bondings" - the structure of the molecule - determines the reactions that it undergoes. Move one functional group and the behaviour of the molecule is completely different.

By way of your reasoning, a DNA molecule could be ordered in any way and not impair its function...

Exactly. It doesn't "impair" it's function - it just changes how it functions. Different ordering produces different reactions which produce different products. It's the same for any molecule.


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 Message 84 by Fosdick, posted 07-12-2007 1:09 PM Fosdick has responded

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Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2968 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 86 of 143 (409968)
07-12-2007 1:41 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by ringo
07-12-2007 1:25 PM


Re: Code above-and-beyond DNA?
Different ordering produces different reactions which produce different products. It's the same for any molecule.

No, it's not. The ordering of DNA is not the same thing as the ordering a quartz crystal. Very different kinds of information are involved. Yes, they all involve chemical bonding, but the quartz crystal has nothing in its structure that even faintly resembles the digital genetic information encoded on a DNA molecule. Their electromagnetic bonding properties and principles may be the same, but their informative properties and principles are quite different.

—HM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by ringo, posted 07-12-2007 1:25 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by ringo, posted 07-12-2007 1:51 PM Fosdick has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 13314
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 87 of 143 (409970)
07-12-2007 1:51 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by Fosdick
07-12-2007 1:41 PM


Re: Code above-and-beyond DNA?
Hoot Mon writes:

The ordering of DNA is not the same thing as the ordering a quartz crystal.

Their ordering is based on the same chemical principles.

Very different kinds of information are involved.

Irrelevant. The information is stored/carried in exactly the same way.

... the quartz crystal has nothing in its structure that even faintly resembles the digital genetic information encoded on a DNA molecule.

The information itself is different, but the way it is stored and used is exactly the same.

Their electromagnetic bonding properties and principles may be the same, but their informative properties and principles are quite different.

But it's the principles that we're talking about. You claimed earlier that DNA operates on some phantom unknown principle.

There's nothing fundamentally different between a DNA molecule and any other molecule. They all bond in the same ways. They all vary in their behaviour based on their structure alone. They all carry their own information in the same way.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Fosdick, posted 07-12-2007 1:41 PM Fosdick has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by Fosdick, posted 07-12-2007 2:57 PM ringo has responded

  
Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2968 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 88 of 143 (409979)
07-12-2007 2:57 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by ringo
07-12-2007 1:51 PM


Re: Code above-and-beyond DNA?
Hoot Mon writes:

The ordering of DNA is not the same thing as the ordering a quartz crystal.

Their ordering is based on the same chemical principles.


No they are not—not their ordering. Quartz crystals have no codes that specific structure. Linear digital codes carrying genetic information are found on only one kind of molecule—nucleic acids—and electromagnetic bonding principles do not explain their ordering. Furthermore, a quartz crystal has no heritable properties because it lacks serial generations to which encoded information can be passed.

—HM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by ringo, posted 07-12-2007 1:51 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-12-2007 3:28 PM Fosdick has not yet responded
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New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11538
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 89 of 143 (409983)
07-12-2007 3:22 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by Fosdick
07-12-2007 12:54 PM


Re: Code above-and-beyond DNA?
And words are meaningless unless we apply a meaning to them in the same way that the DNA "code" is meaningless until we apply a meaning to it.

Non sequitur. Who said anything about "meaning" anyway?

You are when you're calling it a digital code. A code without meaning is no longer a code. My point still stands.

The function of the code is independent of any "meaning" because its all just chemistry. There is no "code" necessary.

Well, yes. But you brought up "meaning."

Well, at least you're admitting that the code is unecessary. Consider yourself refuted.

btw: There is a digital genetic code, and it is necessary.

Oh, wait... maybe you're not.

btw: There is NO digital genetic code and it is NOT necessary.

Wow, that's a fun game.

How about instead of just stating crap, you actually support it?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Fosdick, posted 07-12-2007 12:54 PM Fosdick has not yet responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11538
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 90 of 143 (409985)
07-12-2007 3:28 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by Fosdick
07-12-2007 2:57 PM


Re: Code above-and-beyond DNA?
Hoot Mon writes:

Ringo writes:

Hoot Mon writes:


The ordering of DNA is not the same thing as the ordering a quartz crystal.

Their ordering is based on the same chemical principles.


No they are not—not their ordering. Quartz crystals have no codes that specific structure.

But they are based on the same chemical principles like every other chemical that exists. There isn't anything about DNA that makes it excluded from chemical principles.

And quartz crystals have no "codes" that specify structure because WE haven't defined the codes as such. The only thing that makes DNA different is that we've labeled and defined the "code". But that is something that we have added on, it isn't intrinsic to the property of DNA like you seem to think it is.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Fosdick, posted 07-12-2007 2:57 PM Fosdick has not yet responded

  
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