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Author Topic:   Peppered Moths and Natural Selection
MartinV 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3785 days)
Posts: 502
From: Slovakia, Bratislava
Joined: 08-28-2006


Message 271 of 350 (438432)
12-04-2007 3:41 PM
Reply to: Message 270 by RAZD
12-03-2007 10:40 PM


Re: PPT file and data now available

Even IF you were right about emigration, you would still be wrong about natural selection, for that would have caused the emigration -- the movement of the moths in response to the changing environment would have selected for their survival.

If I am right I don't see a reason why to use peppered moths as an extraordinary example of natural selection in action (Much ado about nothing). Many species run away from polluted areas and no one - as far as I know - uses this trivial fact as convincing evidence for validity of natural selection.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 270 by RAZD, posted 12-03-2007 10:40 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 272 by RAZD, posted 12-04-2007 6:14 PM MartinV has responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19687
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 272 of 350 (438449)
12-04-2007 6:14 PM
Reply to: Message 271 by MartinV
12-04-2007 3:41 PM


MartinV continues to ignore reality and evidence - same old same old
And science, life, reality and the peppered moths are still all singularly unimpressed by your opinion and lack of understanding.

(Much ado about nothing)

That's you in a nutshell. Because emigration does not explain why the populations change and stay changed while the discoloration exists without the pollution.

Nor does it explain the documented differential bird predation. You have to ignore the reality of evidence to reach your conclusions, and that is not science.

Enjoy.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 271 by MartinV, posted 12-04-2007 3:41 PM MartinV has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 273 by MartinV, posted 12-05-2007 1:39 PM RAZD has responded

  
MartinV 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3785 days)
Posts: 502
From: Slovakia, Bratislava
Joined: 08-28-2006


Message 273 of 350 (438608)
12-05-2007 1:39 PM
Reply to: Message 272 by RAZD
12-04-2007 6:14 PM


RAZD and his neodarwinian experiments

Nor does it explain the documented differential bird predation. You have to ignore the reality of evidence to reach your conclusions, and that is not science.

Do you mean that differential predation of peppered moths which were released in the morning? They were so frozen that Kettlewel heated them up in his car because they didn't want to move. After warming up they flown away but took the first place they found. I suppose this a "real science" and nobody should doubt about validity of this experiment.


Because emigration does not explain why the populations change and stay changed while the discoloration exists without the pollution.

It explains it very well. I suppose carbonaria are homozygous having only reccessive alleles. If melanica flew away there is obviously no need to wonder why carbonaria stayed unchanged.

Edited by MartinV, : No reason given.

Edited by MartinV, : past participle


This message is a reply to:
 Message 272 by RAZD, posted 12-04-2007 6:14 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 274 by RAZD, posted 12-05-2007 2:07 PM MartinV has responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19687
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 274 of 350 (438616)
12-05-2007 2:07 PM
Reply to: Message 273 by MartinV
12-05-2007 1:39 PM


MartinV ignores the rest of the evidence that shows he is irrelevant. As usual.
This factoid would be relevant if (1) it made the moths rest in places they normally don't (it did not) and (2) no other study had validated this result (and everyone that has attempted to replicate this basic study - with or without car radiators - has resulted in the same net observation of preferential predation).

Conclusion: both the factoid and your opinion are irrelevant to the real world.

Logically one would review the published literature (which here would include the facts already posted) to make sure that what one was saying wasn't already refuted, but you have never done this. Therefore I conclude you are not interested in facts and reality.

For instance, if one wanted to know where the moths normally rested they could read Message 265, and if one wanted to know if the preferential predation experiment had been run and validated they could also read Message 265. Ignoring these facts does not make an argument, it just demonstrates ignorance.

Enjoy.

Edited by RAZD, : end


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 273 by MartinV, posted 12-05-2007 1:39 PM MartinV has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 275 by MartinV, posted 12-05-2007 3:18 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply
 Message 276 by MartinV, posted 12-08-2007 1:27 PM RAZD has responded

  
MartinV 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3785 days)
Posts: 502
From: Slovakia, Bratislava
Joined: 08-28-2006


Message 275 of 350 (438633)
12-05-2007 3:18 PM
Reply to: Message 274 by RAZD
12-05-2007 2:07 PM


RAZD back up his strange neodarwinian experiments
quote:

This factoid would be relevant if (1) it made the moths rest in places they normally don't (it did not) and

In the Ketllewel experiment with barrels moths rested on the stripes of their respective wing colors. In the Kettlewel experiment with warmed up moths they rested on the places they hit upon as first. On your opinion on which places moths rest "normally"?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 274 by RAZD, posted 12-05-2007 2:07 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

  
MartinV 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3785 days)
Posts: 502
From: Slovakia, Bratislava
Joined: 08-28-2006


Message 276 of 350 (439364)
12-08-2007 1:27 PM
Reply to: Message 274 by RAZD
12-05-2007 2:07 PM


RAZD didn't answer questions and attacked creationists on another thread
I've seen you started a new thread about similarity of cats and foxes.

But you still haven't answered my question where pappered moths usually rest (I mean color of background, no part of trees). Do you consider this question not worth answering?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 274 by RAZD, posted 12-05-2007 2:07 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 277 by RAZD, posted 12-08-2007 1:36 PM MartinV has responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19687
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 277 of 350 (439366)
12-08-2007 1:36 PM
Reply to: Message 276 by MartinV
12-08-2007 1:27 PM


falsehoods recycled
I've seen you started a new thread about similarity of cats and foxes.

Yet it is hardly an attack - just asking for some definition, something usually avoided by creationists, probably because they don't like to be wrong - or is the challenge to participate in reality an attack?

I also see you posting on a lot of other threads with the same kind of nonsense that has been covered on several "mimic" threads now - your inability to apply more than one thought at a time and you just keep cycling through them.

But you still haven't answered my question where pappered moths usually rest (I mean color of background, no part of trees). Do you consider this question not worth answering?

It is answered. Your post is irrelevant. Again.

Enjoy.

Edited by RAZD, : not worth responding. it feeds the troll

Edited by RAZD, : Nor am I worried that the threat of consequences logical fallacy will deter rational people from making decisions based on the ample evidence in this thread - regardless of whether I respond to MartinV or not.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 276 by MartinV, posted 12-08-2007 1:27 PM MartinV has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 278 by MartinV, posted 12-08-2007 2:00 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply
 Message 279 by Percy, posted 12-08-2007 3:18 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

  
MartinV 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3785 days)
Posts: 502
From: Slovakia, Bratislava
Joined: 08-28-2006


Message 278 of 350 (439370)
12-08-2007 2:00 PM
Reply to: Message 277 by RAZD
12-08-2007 1:36 PM


Re: falsehoods recycled
I suppose others will make their own conclusions regarding your arguments.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 277 by RAZD, posted 12-08-2007 1:36 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 17892
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 279 of 350 (439379)
12-08-2007 3:18 PM
Reply to: Message 277 by RAZD
12-08-2007 1:36 PM


Re: falsehoods recycled
RAZD writes:

...not worth responding...

Wise decision.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 277 by RAZD, posted 12-08-2007 1:36 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 280 by MartinV, posted 12-10-2007 1:31 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
MartinV 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3785 days)
Posts: 502
From: Slovakia, Bratislava
Joined: 08-28-2006


Message 280 of 350 (439722)
12-10-2007 1:31 AM
Reply to: Message 279 by Percy
12-08-2007 3:18 PM


Re: falsehoods recycled
If you think that migration of melanica as the possible explanation of the peppered moths case is not "worth responding" I am surprised.
Either you like RAZD think it supports natural selection (e.g. same as being eliminated by birds predation) or you are convinced migration didn't occur. In either case I would like to know some arguments which you obviously do not have.

That's the reason I am troll not "worth responding". My questions are annoying because you have no prepared answers to them at "talkorigin".

The same for mimicry where you are unable answers why some wasps
are not having "warning coloration" and other harmless waps have
very dangerous looking warning coloration.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 279 by Percy, posted 12-08-2007 3:18 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
JonF
Member
Posts: 4268
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 281 of 350 (612342)
04-14-2011 8:05 PM


one mutation from a single ancestor causes increased melanism,
The peppered moth's dark genetic past revealed.
Replies to this message:
 Message 282 by Wounded King, posted 04-15-2011 11:45 AM JonF has not yet responded

  
Wounded King
Member (Idle past 2051 days)
Posts: 4149
From: Edinburgh, Scotland
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 282 of 350 (612414)
04-15-2011 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 281 by JonF
04-14-2011 8:05 PM


Re: one mutation from a single ancestor causes increased melanism,
Damn, I can't believe it still isn't clear what the actual mutation is given how studied a phenomenon the melanism is, but at least the field has been radically narrowed down.

TTFN,

WK


This message is a reply to:
 Message 281 by JonF, posted 04-14-2011 8:05 PM JonF has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 283 by OliverChant, posted 04-17-2011 2:16 PM Wounded King has not yet responded

    
OliverChant
Junior Member (Idle past 2684 days)
Posts: 28
Joined: 04-17-2011


Message 283 of 350 (612599)
04-17-2011 2:16 PM
Reply to: Message 282 by Wounded King
04-15-2011 11:45 AM


You guys do realise that :
You guys do realise that the peppered moth is not found on the trees Darwin said he found them on right?Which ends this arguement here and it has been proven if u can find a peppered mot in real life found there ,well you wont..
This message is a reply to:
 Message 282 by Wounded King, posted 04-15-2011 11:45 AM Wounded King has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 284 by OliverChant, posted 04-17-2011 2:18 PM OliverChant has not yet responded
 Message 285 by Itinerant Lurker, posted 04-17-2011 2:41 PM OliverChant has responded

    
OliverChant
Junior Member (Idle past 2684 days)
Posts: 28
Joined: 04-17-2011


Message 284 of 350 (612600)
04-17-2011 2:18 PM
Reply to: Message 283 by OliverChant
04-17-2011 2:16 PM


Also I thought :
Mutation is the lead to evolutionism yet the peppered moth is white on a brown tree,wow is this guy camoflauged and really superior to other moths there(sarcasm).
This message is a reply to:
 Message 283 by OliverChant, posted 04-17-2011 2:16 PM OliverChant has not yet responded

    
Itinerant Lurker
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 67
Joined: 12-12-2008


Message 285 of 350 (612608)
04-17-2011 2:41 PM
Reply to: Message 283 by OliverChant
04-17-2011 2:16 PM


Re: You guys do realise that :

You guys do realise that the peppered moth is not found on the trees Darwin said he found them on right?Which ends this arguement here and it has been proven if u can find a peppered mot in real life found there ,well you wont..

"Darwin"? Really?

Read less Wells and more actual research. I mean, good lord man at least do a Google image search for "peppered moths + trees" before posting such nonsense.

Lurker


This message is a reply to:
 Message 283 by OliverChant, posted 04-17-2011 2:16 PM OliverChant has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 286 by OliverChant, posted 04-17-2011 2:44 PM Itinerant Lurker has responded

    
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