Alas, poor Ohio .... EvC related news

Well, according to him, he very clearly deliniated that they weren't to do that, but they did anyway. I guess that was the point of my aside - maybe the messed up or whatever, but when it comes to the revenue generated by information sale, the ACLU - in this one case, at least - appears to be just as mercenary as the next group.I agree with your point, though. It seems like the ACLU can't get a break - if they try to prevent Christians from trampling on civil freedoms, they're anti-theist pinko baby-eaters toeing their secularist party line. But when they stand up for the rights of Christians, it's just a cynical ploy to curry favor with red-blooded Amuricans.Lord forbid the truth be countenanced - the ACLU tries to stand up for civil rights regardless of the beliefs of the wronged party.This message has been edited by crashfrog, 06-07-2004 02:52 AM

I have no doubt this will occur many years into the future when some enterprising young firebrand will proclaim that 2001 is absolutely factual in every detail.(Wait, didn't L. Ron kind of do something like that already?)

You may want to re-familiarize yourself with the constitution.
_________________________________U.S. ConstitutionDone in convention by the unanimous consent of the states present the seventeenth day of September in the year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and eighty seven and of the independence of the United States of America the twelfth.In witness whereof We have hereunto subscribed our Names,G. Washington-Presidt. and deputy from VirginiaNew Hampshire: John Langdon, Nicholas GilmanMassachusetts: Nathaniel Gorham, Rufus KingConnecticut: Wm: Saml. Johnson, Roger ShermanNew York: Alexander HamiltonNew Jersey: Wil: Livingston, David Brearly, Wm. Paterson, Jona: DaytonPennsylvania: B. Franklin, Thomas Mifflin, Robt. Morris, Geo. Clymer, Thos. FitzSimons, Jared Ingersoll, James Wilson, Gouv MorrisDelaware: Geo: Read, Gunning Bedford jun, John Dickinson, Richard Bassett, Jaco: BroomMaryland: James McHenry, Dan of St Thos. Jenifer, Danl CarrollVirginia: John Blair--, James Madison Jr.North Carolina: Wm. Blount, Richd. Dobbs Spaight, Hu WilliamsonSouth Carolina: J. Rutledge, Charles Cotesworth Pinckney, Charles Pinckney, Pierce ButlerGeorgia: William Few, Abr Baldwin_________________________________Now maybe you will disagree with me but my guess is that the "Lord" being referred to here is the same lord that the christians call jesus, so it would seem that the very men who signed the constitution happened to accept the notion of god as being a reality.
_________________________________Bill of RightsAmendment ICongress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.U.S. Constitution | U.S. Constitution | US Law | LII / Legal Information Institute_______________________________
Now maybe you read that differently than I do but what I read here is that neither the congress, nor the courts, nor even the aclu has the right to tell the populace that they can not talk about whatever god they choose to talk about, anywhere, anytime.We may not like it but the Ohio Board of Education, and any other Board of Education for that matter, would be perfectly within their rights to yield to the wishes of the populace and include the teaching of intelligent design right along side of evolution. At least according to the constitution I read.Cheers

---

BREATHE DEEP THE GATHERING GLOOM

Nonsense. It is a simply acknowledgment of the year. Most everyone, even Jews, used the same dating notations on bill and ladings. It has nothing to do with religion. Of course, it took quite a while longer to knock off those extra days to get in step with the rest of the world.While the folk in Ohio are free to hold any opinions they want, they DO NOT have the right to include and supernatural religious material in the public schools.

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

[Jar: While the folk in Ohio are free to hold any opinions they want, they DO NOT have the right to include and supernatural religious material in the public schools.]Sorry Jar, but according to the constitution, they have every right to do just that sort of thing if that is what the people agree to and so far I have not heard of any referendum being presented to the Ohio populace that would lead me to believe that they, the Ohio populace, would object to it by a majority vote. Aint democracy grand!Cheers

---

BREATHE DEEP THE GATHERING GLOOM

That's why we are not a Democracy, thank GOD.And the Constitution actually says that they Can Not do something like that.If they were to allow teaching in a public, state funded school system that said a GOD designed living things, then that is establishing a state religion. And that, thank God, is a no-no.

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

[Rrhain: If I take a piece of metal and painstakingly carve out the obverse and reverse of a quarter, is it any different from a quarter that is minted?]Sure it's different, yours isn't legal tender.Now on to abiogenesis and "your" inability to understand what I wrote concerning it and the theory of evolution.presuppose
SYLLABICATION: presuppose
TRANSITIVE VERB: Inflected forms: presupposed, presupposing, presupposes
1. To believe or suppose in advance.
2. To require or involve necessarily as an antecedent condition. See synonyms at presume. [Rrhain: Doesn't your holy book tell you to love thine enemy as you love thyself?.....And thus, you just relegated your "intelligent design".....]My holy book? My intelligent design. Where the hell did I say that? What post were you reading anyway?You may want to consider reading my posts a little closer next time. And as for the aclu, I never said it was anti-christian, or even anti-religion, just anti-theist and not one of the links you offered has anything to do with the aclu defending "god" or "a god" which is a hell of a lot different than defending a religion, a religious group, or a religious individual.The "Oh my God" Case
The ACLU was the prime mover in bringing this challenge to the Ohio motto.
ForbiddenAccording to recent statistics, the U.S. population is compromised of 80 percent Christian/Jews. I think the ACLU goes way overboard when they are out recruiting complainants for cases that the vast majority of the population would not support. The ACLU gives themselves a bad name when they do this.They oppose restricting children from pornography on the Internet while also taking offense to the posting of the Ten Commandments in a (presumably) predominantly Christian/Jewish community. Where is the logic in this? Where is the balance in this? Where are they guiding our country?The ACLU say they exist to protect our freedoms, but there are limits and in the wake of what happened on 9/11 - arguably a case could be made that they should be ashamed of where their guidance has gotten us so far.The ACLU needs to stop digging and searching for cases, focusing on the obscure and inane and start doing constructive things to honestly make our country a better and safer place to live.If there aren't larger, more pressing cases for them to work on where they actually would be working to protect the people's civil liberties instead of exploiting the trivial and creating mountains where there aren't even mole-hills, maybe they've outgrown the noble cause they presumably originally sought and intended to undertake.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0%2C2933%2C39660%2C00.htmlACLU Urges Supreme Court to Uphold Ruling Removing the Phrase Under God From Pledge of Allegiance Recited in Public Schools (03/24/2004)WASHINGTON - The American Civil Liberties Union today urged the Supreme Court to uphold a federal appeals court ruling that public schools are constitutionally barred from linking patriotism and piety by reciting the phrase "under God" as part of the Pledge of Allegiance.
http://www.aclu.org/...giousLiberty/ReligiousLibertylist.cfmACLU Challenging 'God Bless America'
http://www.afa.net/activism/aa101701.aspThe ACLU - America's Very Own Taliban Demands End of "God Bless America".....On March 23, 1998 the very liberal California Supreme Court ruled unanimously against the ACLU.....
ForbiddenIn God We Trust: Is It Time to Decide? Michael G. Shaw November 9, 2000 Simply put, most Atheists don’t like the ‘In God We Trust’ slogan staring at us every time we pull out our wallets or purses.
http://www.shawlegal.com/ChurchStatePaper.pdfIt should be clear to you by now that I am no fan of the aclu and that I could go on and on, listing literally hundreds of like examples but I think that by now it should be obvious to any reasonable individual that the aclu gets more than a little nuts whenever someone says "god" and they can't wait to file a suit to make them stop saying it, writing it, promoting it, or displaying it in any manner.Mark my words, when the religious liberties have been fully eroded in this country, we won't be far behind on the hit list. Freedom of academic thought and ideas will be the next casualty. If we learn nothing else from history, we should at least learn, and remember, that much.Cheers

---

BREATHE DEEP THE GATHERING GLOOM

[Jar: That's why we are not a Democracy, thank GOD.]Thank whomever or whatever you wish. We may be a republic, but we definitely practice democracy here. Stop splitting hairs. [Jar: And the Constitution actually says that they Can Not do something like that.]I would love for you to point out to me where you read that in the constitution and don't bother pointing me to the establishment clause, (or the separation clause), if you prefer that term. It does not address that issue at all. School Boards are not congressionally elected officials. [Jar: If they were to allow teaching in a public, state funded school system.....]Public? State? Hmmm, lets see now."The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."
Constitution of the United States
Bill of Rights
Amendment XPretty cut and dried, wouldn't you say?Cheers

---

BREATHE DEEP THE GATHERING GLOOM

Federal bucks, DS, Federal Bucks.

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

quote:

---

Amendment 14 (exerpt):
No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States;

---

Yes, I'd say so. In the face of Amendment 14, how can you suggest that a state has the ability to circumvent Constitutionally protected rights?

Federal bucks, State bucks.....makes no difference whatsoever. It all comes from the populace.
______________________________________________________________________
The Gettysburg Address
Gettysburg, Pennsylvania
November 19, 1863Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent, a new nation, conceived in Liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal.Now we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether that nation, or any nation so conceived and so dedicated, can long endure. We are met on a great battle-field of that war. We have come to dedicate a portion of that field, as a final resting place for those who here gave their lives that that nation might live. It is altogether fitting and proper that we should do this.But, in a larger sense, we can not dedicate -- we can not consecrate -- we can not hallow -- this ground. The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract. The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here.It is for us the living, rather, to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us -- that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion -- that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain -- that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom -- and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.
______________________________________________________________________Of the people, by the people, for the people.....I guess you're not a big fan of ol' honest Abe. That's ok, I don't think the aclu is either.Cheers

---

BREATHE DEEP THE GATHERING GLOOM

[crashfrog: .....how can you suggest that a state has the ability to circumvent Constitutionally protected rights?]
______________________________________________________________________
U.S. Constitution
Bill of RightsAmendment ICongress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.Amendment IXThe enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.Amendment XThe powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.Amendment XIVSection 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
______________________________________________________________________Bill of Rights
Amendment I"CONGRESS" shall make no law respecting an "ESTABLISHMENT" of religion, or "PROHIBITING" the "FREE EXCERCISE" thereof; or "ABRIDGING" the "FREEDOM OF SPEECH", or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances. (emphasis mine}Exactly which "constitutionally" protected rights are you referring to?Cheers

---

BREATHE DEEP THE GATHERING GLOOM

The right to free excercise, which presumably includes the right not to be forced to excerise a religion not of your choosing. That would include being forced to attend religious services, training, or instruction.

Big fan of Mr. Lincoln.But not a clone of Mr. Lincoln.When we use public funds to promote religion though, we are wrong.And allowing creationism or even intellegent design, even though niether could possibly be taken seriously by any reasoning being, is to establish a state religion. There is simply no way to get around that.We are not a Theocracy, thank God. And I will do all I can to make sure the US never becomes a Theocracy.edited to fix spellingThis message has been edited by jar, 06-08-2004 09:34 PM

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

[Jar: When we use public funds to promote religion though, we are wrong.]Exactly which religion would these funds be promoting and would this truly be the case even if the teaching of creationism is what the majority of the public wishes?August 30, 1999
Americans Support Teaching Creationism as Well as Evolution in Public Schools
Divided on origins of human speciesby David W. MooreAlthough some leaders in the scientific community have expressed stunned dismay at the willingness of both leading presidential contenders, Texas Governor George W. Bush and Vice-President Al Gore, to support the teaching of creationism in public schools, recent Gallup polls confirm that Americans are in favor of that policy by a substantial margin. At the same time, they are divided on how human beings came into existence.
Page Not Found [jar: And allowing creationism or even intellegent design, even though niether could possibly be taken seriously by any reasoning being, is to establish a state religion. There is simply no way to get around that.]jar, that statement, "allowing creationism or even intellegent design, even though niether could possibly be taken seriously by any reasoning being, is to establish a state religion", is so utterly foolish and ridiculous that I am surprised that your were willing to state it openly. Exactly which one of the many religions that believe in creation and/or intelligent design would be established and exactly how does the teaching of creationism and/or intelligent design establish a religion?I hate to have to stick up for the creationists/id'ers here but you are making some unbelieveably outlandish statements that have absolutely no merit whatsoever.No Cheers for you this time!

---

BREATHE DEEP THE GATHERING GLOOM