Taxes

Some points of interest:Progressive taxes do work, but they also work on a scale. As taxes go higher the economy slows, as taxes go down the economy grows. Look at the Carter era for example, taxes at a max of 70%, economy in a major slump. Reagen era brings lower taxes and economy starts to grow.
There is no problem with the wealthiest paying the most taxes, they will do that no matter what rate they pay, however the liberal claims of tax brakes only affecting the rich are misleading. Under Bushes tax plan people making 50k a year will pay zero taxes. That will most likely encompass a large portion of the the people on these forums.Another matter that liberals don't like to mention is that the rich drive the economy, when the rich start spending the economy grows since they have more disposable income. A growing economy helps all of us, for example during the late 90's when the economy was in full bloom Network Administrators were getting paid obscene amounts of money, the average salary for a Network Administrator in NYC was 90k.The other problem is that you can only cut the taxes of the poor for so long before they pay zero taxes, and then there is nothing you can do. Lets take Shaf's example, someone makes 10k and someone makes 150k, sure the 150k person only takes home 75k and the 10k person pays zero taxes but how would tax cuts affect someone who already pays zero in taxes? Perhaps they should get paid to make that little? While the person making more money pays for it with tax increases?If you owned an Apartment Building would you give apartments away to low/zero income familes and then subsidize that buy making actual renters pay more? What do you think would happen if you did? They would probably move out, and then where would you be with no one to pay for the housing you are giving away?[This message has been edited by RedVento, 03-04-2003]

I would disagree that everyone can shovel dirt.I would agree that not everyone can do advanced mathematics.One is harder than the other.Have you ever worked doing any sort of manual labor?I have. I have also worked in 'office' jobs. I can say - without question or hesitation - which one is harder.

SLPx writes:

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I would disagree that everyone can shovel dirt.
I would agree that not everyone can do advanced mathematics.
One is harder than the other.
Have you ever worked doing any sort of manual labor?
I have. I have also worked in 'office' jobs. I can say - without question or hesitation - which one is harder.

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Manual labour is far harder. However, while most people can perform manual labour, however poorly, the vast majority cannot do advanced math or rocket science.------------------
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Mostly, the wealthy are "forced" to pay for the needs of the elderly (Medicare and Social Security), the military (Defense), and Corporate Welfare.

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They are still forced to pay for the needs of others. All citizens get protection under the national defense. why should those with money pay for those who didn't prepare for their old age. Don't get me wrong i think society has a responsibility to help those with mental or physical handicaps. I still ask why tax payers much less the rich should be forced to pay for those who choose not to support themselves.

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Unfettered capitalism leads to worker exploitation and corporate greed, as evidenced by Enron and Worldcom recently.

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Another myth is that hard work is all you need to make it to the top in this country.

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You also need a lot of connections, as our current president is evidence of.

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Like i said. I support an increase in the minimum wage to help those who actually work support themselves and their families.I still believe it is possible to better oneself through hard work, even if it takes connections. those connections had to be formed somehow. You don't always need to have connections, small businesses are the major supporters of the economy.Let me say that i agree with your last statement. It is clear that the only way to run for political office is to be wealthy and I beleive we are setting up an aristocracy. I don't know how this can be changed but i do believe the common man should be able to run for political office regardless of his social status.[This message has been edited by Winston Smith Asriel, 03-08-2003]

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Would I want to be making $150,000 a year and have 50% of it taken away in taxes, or would I want to be making just over $10,000 a year and have none of it taken away?

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(To pay zero taxes, that's how little you make in a year)

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That leaves you with $75,000 or $10,000.

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Take your pick.

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On the surface. 75K but i would rather be paid a amount closer to my real salary. The company pays me 150K to do my job regardless of how much the government takes away. Im still doing a job that earns 150K.

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The $10,000 works out to $820 per month to live on for rent/house payment, food, medical, dental, etc.

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The $75,000 works out to $6,250/month to live on.

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Soo.... The guy doing the 10K is doing a 10K job. That's not my fault. Why shouldn't he have to pay anything for his vote, his national defense or his roads? Why should the 150K have to pay for the 10K?

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Have you ever worked doing any sort of manual labor?

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I am a minor and have not had a 'real' job. However, I have had to do plenty of manual labor. Digging ditches, mowing the lawn, digging more ditches, building an entire fence... Yeah I've done manual labor.The point: Digging a ditch doesn't take a college degree does it?[This message has been edited by Winston Smith Asriel, 03-05-2003]

I would ask you this: Is One man's vote cost more than another's based on his economic status? A 10k worker's vote still counts the same as the 150K. There are some rich who use their wealth to influence votes, however, even if they did it still would'nt matter. If I make 30 million and don't use my wealth to illegally support a politician, I still pay 50% in taxes.

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I am a minor and have not had a 'real' job.

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This explains a great deal.

Is that it? Or will you respond to my previous posts? Is it not my business to be concerned with the world and country that i will soon enter in? Should I let my opinion be left unheard while the rest of the country messes it up for me?

You speak as someone who has no idea what it's like to eke out a living on a small amount of money.I find that people who hold the views you do have either never worked for a living or have always had money, and lack historical context. The wealthy currently have it as good as they ever have in our country's history as far as taxs go. The tax rate for the richest Americans at one point was 80% or higher.You boo hoo about all the upper middle class and rich people and the taxes they pay. You wax poetic about all the hard work these rich people do and how they did it all on their own, when in reality most rich people are like that because they were born that way or they got a lot of help from the networks of connections that are designed to keep the wealth in this country exactly where the wealthy want to keep it.The people who truly do come from nothing and "pull themselves up by their own bootstaps" despite all the odds and obstacles and become wealthy is actually a tiny, tiny minority. The rich pretty much keep getting richer, and the same families and individuals control the wealth.The majority of taxes that most people pay is payroll taxes, which is a regressive tax. You focus entirely upon income tax rates, but if you take into account the Social Security and Medicare taxes I pay as a percentage of my income compared to the Social Security and Medicare taxes a wealthy person pays as a percentage of their income, it is no comparison at all.The wealthy person stops paying Medicare taxes after the first 60K of income, so it ends up being a miniscule part of their total taxes. By contrast, it is a huge chunk of mine.Proportionally, people who make less contribute more to Social Security and Medicare.I think your views are based upon naive ideas about life.

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I would ask you this: Is One man's vote cost more than another's based on his economic status? A 10k worker's vote still counts the same as the 150K.

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True.

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There are some rich who use their wealth to influence votes, however, even if they did it still would'nt matter.

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Excuse me? That the wealthy are able to influence the government in order to benefit themselves while the non-wealthy do not have the same influence doesn't matter?

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If I make 30 million and don't use my wealth to illegally support a politician, I still pay 50% in taxes.

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That means that you have to suffer and struggle to live on $15 million a year.I hope you find some way to make ends meet, truly I do.

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Soo.... The guy doing the 10K is doing a 10K job. That's not my fault. Why shouldn't he have to pay anything for his vote, his national defense or his roads? Why should the 150K have to pay for the 10K?

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The thing is, the person making 10K STILL PAYS TAXES.He or she still pays those REGRESSIVE payroll taxes for Social Security and Medicare.Also remember that they are also paying sales tax and property taxes (if they own a house).

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As taxes go higher the economy slows, as taxes go down the economy grows. Look at the Carter era for example, taxes at a max of 70%, economy in a major slump.

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But look at the current economy; major slump, low taxes for the rich both before and during, with enormous deficits looming.

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Reagen era brings lower taxes and economy starts to grow.

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Except that the deficit ballooned and it took two decades to pay it down. ...which was all for naught because because Bush Jr. is blowing it up again to unheard of dimensions.

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The people who truly do come from nothing and "pull themselves up by their own bootstaps" despite all the odds and obstacles and become wealthy is actually a tiny, tiny minority. The rich pretty much keep getting richer, and the same families and individuals control the wealth.

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That's because a small minority choose to do that.

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The majority of taxes that most people pay is payroll taxes, which is a regressive tax. You focus entirely upon income tax rates, but if you take into account the Social Security and Medicare taxes I pay as a percentage of my income compared to the Social Security and Medicare taxes a wealthy person pays as a percentage of their income, it is no comparison at all.

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The wealthy person stops paying Medicare taxes after the first 60K of income, so it ends up being a miniscule part of their total taxes. By contrast, it is a huge chunk of mine.

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Proportionally, people who make less contribute more to Social Security and Medicare.

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So each individual pays for his own medicare and social security - that's fair. What about the roads, the national defense and other public services paid MOSTLY for by the upper income tax brackets.