God is good and evil

I like atheists, probably have more atheist/agnostic friends than Christian friends. But this kind of 'pity us' arguement is getting on my nerves:"How can something be good for God that is evil for us, when God is good? i.e. God has a reason for everything that means he had a reason for the nuclear bombs and the mass deaths of the Japanese etc etc. Was that not evil? Did God have a reason for it? If not then how can God be Omniscient?"Cry me a river, build me a bridge, and get over it! I see lots of people pulling this number.Look, God allows free will, in other words he lets us do our thing. He might step in every now and then, but if He did control every major event on earth there wouldn't be much of free will. When you have a child, you must eventually allow them to go off on their own or else they will never be independent. We can't be blindly Christian-happy clones. Where's the fun in that?Basically, anybody who says 'God is a crutch' needs a reality check, because He's not always going to step in and save you.More complaining:"Did God create evil? He certainly set the boundaries for right and wrong, He defined it."He created Satan; I'd say He basically did."How can something exist if God did not create it?"He made us in His image that we can make stuff, too. I'll get back to that at the end."Didn’t God create everything?"When it comes down to it, no. He made creations, His creations made stuff. Did He plan on the creation's creations? Who knows."That’s why He is all powerful isn’t? If he didn’t create something that means he doesn’t control it how can He be all powerful then? "I didn't make this computer, yet I can make it do things. However, to answer the next question there are many things this computer can be controlled to do that I don't make it do."If God created freewill, and from freewill came evil, then God created us with the capacity for something that didn’t exist unless God created it."I figure He created the concept of evil then allowed us to make our own decision."If He did not create everything then He is not all powerful (omnipotent), all knowing (omniscient) or everywhere (omnipresent). "How so? If He can create things that create things he's pretty powerful. Just because he didn't make things doesn't mean He couldn't have. If He created the concept of Good and Evil and such He's all knowing. If He sees all, He's everywhere. Somebody else already said you confuse everywhere with everyhing. I agree."If God created evil then God is both evil and good just like human! And aren’t humans created in His image?"If I create a dog out of clay, I am not the dog, am I? We're created in His image because we can make stuff; at least that's what I've always figured. Any more questions?[This message has been edited by Born2Preach, 03-21-2004]

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Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit.

There's more than that one type of evil, however I will acknowledge that's probably the most universally recognized one. But really, to have absolute free will you can't have your actions prevented at all. If someone's got Parental Controls on their screen name, it will prevent them from going to sites that people shouldn't be going to anyway, but it will also prevent other, good sites that would otherwise be accessable. Hopefully that illustrates the point.

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Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit.

"Which is exactly what evil does, especially murder. It prevents all future actions of the victim."This statement is false. If I kick a man in the shin for no apparent reason then dash away giggling, it won't hinder his future actions by more than a few seconds. Hence, ALL future actions of the victim were not prevented.It's true that murder, if successful, will halt all future actions of the victim, but that isn't the only type of evil and attempted murder(I assume we agree) is evil even though it doesn't succeed."If parental control is bad, why do parents use it?"Because they obviously don't trust their kids enough to have access to the whole internet. There's lots of things parental controls weed out that are far from innapropriate."If it's so good that parents should use it, why doesn't God?"I don't think it's a good thing at all, in fact I don't think they should have it. So why would God?"God is a shitty parent. "Ouch. God forgive ya.How did you come to this conclusion?[This message has been edited by Born2Preach, 03-22-2004]

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Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit.

Earlier today I just got home from school so I was kind of tired. I guess my arguement wasn't as strong at that time, but now that I just got back from doorbell ditching I'm wide awake so let's work this jive turkey:"WTF?I was talking about murder, not shin-kicking."Really. To my understanding you were talking about evil in general, with murder as an example. It may not be evil as in devestating to the world as we know it, but it's still evil because it hurts."You still haven't refuted the fact that evil - at least some kinds - reduce choice..."'at least some kinds' is more like it. Saying all X do Y is a generalization; generalizations annoy me.I agree with this, I've no reason to argue with it. But the next part is another story:"...no evil increases choice."Untrue. Let's say the shin kicking(assuming we both agree it's a minor form of evil) occurs at a bus station. Both people were waiting for the bus. I guess one could do anything in his power at any moment, making endless choices. However, the shin kicking will create more plausable choices for both parties:Kicker:Can run away, continue kicking, or wait for the bus like nothing happened, just to name a few.Kickee:Can chase the person, curl in fetal position and cry, talk to them about why in the world they did it, or just ignore the other person and continue waiting.ALTHOUGH all of these COULD have been done without the shin kicking, it'd be silly for me to ask someone why they kicked me in the shin when they haven't done so.Please remember that I am not advocating evil as a good thing; in fact my original arguement in this thread was that God is not evil.
How we got to this I don't know but if you would like to keep going on this we can open another thread."Observation. Good parents don't put their children in situations of danger or harm."I disagree. By letting them go to school unsupervised by the parents, they are put in harm's way. However, most would agree that keeping a child home and protected their whole lives is by no means good parenting."Of course, I'm mostly kidding. The real reason that God allows bad things to happen is because God doesn't actually exist."I don't mind kidding; more people need to relax and have fun on this forum.However, there's lots of people who would disagree with that real reason. If you'd like to convince them otherwise this is the right place to do it, but just like everyone here you'll need 'evidence to support this claim'.[This message has been edited by Born2Preach, 03-23-2004]

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Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit.

I posted points in message 7 stating that though God might've indirectly created evil, He is not evil Himself. I also asserted that despite this, God is just as omnicent, omnipotent, and omni whatever else. That was the original arguement that myself, Mike the Whiz, and Stephen all contributed to.A sub debate just took place but so far nobody's argued the main point further. Anybody care to chip in?

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Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit.

"Yes. But the fact that shin-kicking doesn't drastically reduce choice has nothing to do with the fact that true evil does reduce choice."shin-kicking is obviously a minor evil compared to murder and rape. However minor it may be, evil is still evil. If it's not 'true' evil, then what kind of evil is it? Not evil? Hopefully we agree that shin-kicking is not a good thing."And remember, shin-kicking does eliminate one choice for the victim - the choice to not be kicked in the shins."But to take away evil actions you would not have the option to kick them in the shin, punch them in the nose, or knee them in the groin.
There are countless good things you can do at any given moment in time and space; there are probably about as many evils you can do at the very same moment and place.If we agree on this, to take away all those evil actions would eliminate more choices than to allow evil. Sure, most of them will impend choices, but you must choose to impend another's choice, and which way to do it. Lots of possible decisions."Nonetheless, they're still choices. And the kicker has taken away one crucial choice from the kickee - the choice to not be kicked in the shins."We're granted that choice every second we're not being kicked in the shins, it takes away that choice once. However, it created the choice TO be kicked in the shins even if that choice is not desirable. We don't get to be kicked when we're by ourselves unless we do it (which, if commited, would prove that it is in fact a choice), and
some people wouldn't do that if you ask them.That one choice taken away will not remove future choices, and for God to disallow such minor acts of evil completely would remove a lot more choices over a larger span of time than what's being taken away by stupid acts like that. It wouldn't completely remove free will to disallow evil acts, but it would greatly reduce it."Nonesense. School administrators and teachers exist in part to ensure minimal risk to children, by supervision."What schools are we talking about?!What teachers and administators are supposed to do and what they really do are completely different things in my experience. They haven't ensured anything; I would not have gotten jumped in 3rd Grade if this were so. Administrators at my high school look the other way when our top athletes are using steroids and even picking on people much weaker than they are. School is a dangerous place, and everyone I know well has gotten into at least one major fight on campus, with no adult intervention until at least a few minutes after it started, if at all. I could go on about how messed up our schools are, but that's the point I needed to make about ONE of its dangers."But a perfect, all-powerful, benevolent God doesn't have that limit. He's perfectly able to shield someone from harm without harming them in the process. Unless you think there's something God can't do?"An allknowing being would know that a baby will never learn to walk if they never leave the cradle, and you have to get colds etc. at a young age or your immune system will never develop properly.Even the wilderness without people is dangerous, but it's good. Danger isn't always evil, and evil isn't always dangerous. But please don't think I'm saying someone hurting someone else isn't evil, I mean natural dangers when I say dangers without evil.[This message has been edited by Born2Preach, 03-23-2004]

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Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit.

"Remember my point isn't that restricting evil doesn't decrease choice. My point is that allowing evil reduces more choices in total than restricting it would."I humbly disagree with that point. I think I meantioned this before:There are countless things anyone can do at any given moment that are good, and about as many thigns one can do that are evil. If you take the bad away, you reduce it (amount of choices at any given moment, ie freewill) by anywhere from 30%-55% on estimate."Now, why does a few choices of evildoers outwiegh the greater amount of choices of victims? If God wanted to maximize choice, he'd prevent murder, at least."I'm sorry, but there's more than a few evil things I could do just sitting at this computer; I could type countless possible insults etc. into this text box right now. There's lots of ways to murder people as well.Also, about that ending choices. Keep in mind that lots of murders involve a struggle. You cannot choose to physically struggle against a murder that is not happening to you. That creates a choice, even if only for a limited time. Are the choices for the other ended? Maybe, depending on your belief in afterlife, it does but there's so many evil things one could do at any moment, to take them away would reduce free will by a much higher percentage than to leave it as it is, with us able to do as we decide.Again, I AM NOT ADVOCATING EVIL. I'm simply asserting that for absolute freewill at any given moment we can't be restricted from evil. We ate the fruit, we have the knowledge, we can do good or evil with it.Also, although you and I agree that evil can be to a certain extent defined from good, many others would argue that good and evil are simply perceptions; if that were the case then all actions are just actions and to remove any of them from our possibilities would take a lot of free will away."Who needs to learn to walk when God can just make you walk? Who needs an immune system in a world without colds?"We don't live in a world without colds, do we? Whether or not the evils of this world were started way back in the Garden of Eden or not is irrelevant to the arguement; the point is that it's here. It exists. Then you ask, 'why doesn't God just wipe it all away?'I could come up with a bunch of answers from a theistic perspective, but I think I'll explain it on common ground that we would both agree is legitimate.I've said it before, the world with or without humans is a dangerous place, and that's good. We all have that need for adventure even when we grow up, and with adventure there's the unknown, with the unknown there is risk, with risk there is, as it implies, a high possibility of danger.Do you want to live in a world with NO danger? Would you really want somebody else to wipe everything away and make it better? Hell no, where's the danger in that?I'm assuming we both agree that humans created these human problems.
We brought this terrible worldwide turmoil on ourselves. Keep that in mind during the next paragraph or so." "Free will" and "choice" are just cop-outs for people who don't want to face the truth that if God exists, he's the ultimate deadbeat dad. "So I guess my own dad was a dead beat dad too, huh? Your daddy can't fix all your problems for you! Most of us at 4-6 years old come home telling dad about the big bullies that beat us up, yes? Did he go out there and kick the crap out of the kids? Hopefully not, for most of us he tells us to go out there and stick up for ourselves and fight the biggest bully there face to face. An overwhelming number of us win. Those who don't get tougher just like those who do.It's not deadbeat to tell your kids to handle their own problems. I have a feeling you're going to say 'God can make a perfect world where we don't NEED to mature and stand up for ourselves!' so I'll answer that right now.Are you proud of how much you've grown, changed and matured since you were 5? You never would've done that in a perfect world, there would be no need for maturity or inner strength. You don't get stronger unless you lift weights and exercise, right? No pain, no gain! Even with steroids you have to lift a little, but we all know that the easy road always has nasty side effects...That was a lot longer than I planned it to be. sorry![This message has been edited by Born2Preach, 03-26-2004]

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Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit.

"This made me laugh. Thank you. I love made-up figures."No worries, I didn't claim it was added up somewhere, I just took an about estimate."Actually depending on your belief, too - can you do evil in Heaven? If not, people in heaven don't have free will, according to your argument."That raises an interesting point, before I *attempt* to answer that please note that I do not claim to know anything about heaven so this is a hypothetical arguement.Can you do evil in heaven? Lucifer B. Satan did it. Then he got kicked out. I don't think that happens very often now if at all; I would suppose when you get to heaven you become more enlightened, so even though you can do evil you know enough to deem it unneccesary."don't you think an all-powerful God could preserve the choice of evil without allowing the consequence of evil? You can choose to pull the trigger, but does the gun have to fire? Your choice is already made so how could a convinient misfire rob you of choice?"This, in turn, made me laugh. So when you stab somebody the blade's supposed to bend? When I kick someone in the shin does my shoe split at the toe? When I try to make fun of that question do my fingerz aoipenpoj wepojnmrpoernmrptop,mgeI think you get the idea. Yes, an omnipotent God COULD do that, but then we'd live in a rubber world with no danger."Personally, no. But don't you think a benevolent, concerned God would give us the choice?"He did back at the Garden of Eden, according to most Christian Theists. I assume we're keeping it hypothetical that He exists, so I'll stand with that."Ever play a game like Everquest? There's areas where you can come to harm, and areas where you are safe from harm, like towns. If video game designers can balance the need for adventure and testing (which I agree is important), you're telling me God can't?" I HATE EVERQUEST AND ALL OTHER MMOs!!! For mentioning that you just lost 5 intergity points and went down a respect level. I've got a friend that plays that(luckily not as often as he used to )I could go on to make fun of that but instead I'll get back on topic while holding on to the analogy.One thing about MMOs that I assume gets people to like them is the fact that much of it is player made. You get to decide what you want to do, but your choices can also effect other people for better or for worse. We do that too, people who live in constant danger are living in products of someone else's cruelty, which was their free will to create."But we both agree that God could take them away any time he pleased, which in my book, makes him responsible."Again, my dad could've beat those kids down when I was little, but instead he had me stick up for myself like God makes us do. I don't pretend to know how God works, but this is what I've gathered from my life's experiences."No. But he never said he could. "The typical dad can beat up 4 six year olds."He never claimed to have infinite wisdom and surpassing power. "You don't need to be omnipotent to beat up four little kids! I have LOTS of little cousins, I know this for a fact!"Moreover, nobody else claimed that he had those things, and nobody tried to tell me that it would all be easier if I just opened my heart and let my all-powerful, all-knowing Dad in."I disagree with anyone who ever says Christianity will make your life easier. Including any scripture in the Bible. Certain things may happen for the better because of it, but overall it's much harder to live as a Christian."And nobody ever insinutated that I was an evil, hell-bound sinner for not holding the same belief about dad as them."Even if they did, was it dad's fault that they said that?"All I'm arguing is that God doesn't live up to what is claimed about him"I thought it was whether or not evil takes away more choices than it brings, but I guess the arguement is just going with the flow."(not the least of which is his failure to actually exist. ) All you seem to be arguing is that I have no right to point that out,"You have every right to because it's part of your free will, it's just that I have every right to say you're wrong."and moreover, neither of us want God to live up to his claims."Depends on which claims. Lots is claimed about God, I'd hate to think he'd live up to the claim of being dead."Weird argument, if you ask me."Yes, but Everquest is weirder. I hate Everquest. [This message has been edited by Born2Preach, 03-27-2004]

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Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit.

Apologies to Crashfrog for taking time to reply. I had some stuff to do up until late yesterday, and my brain was too tired to argue so I put it off till now. Anyways...A few posts ago I mentioned something about the necessity for some danger in this world, and how it can be a good thing. From my understanding you agreed, because you made the analogy of the balance between safety and danger and how a good balance is necessary in reality. Then this:I say:
Yes, an omnipotent God COULD do that, but then we'd live in a rubber world with no danger.
You reply:
That was rather the point.You can't balance between a thing that exists and a thing that does not. Please make it clear whether or not you feel danger and exiliration are an important part of a good life."What, a week-old guy with the mind of a child and his equally ignorant wife get to make the decision for every human being afterwards? How is that fair? When did I get to choose?"Aha, the original sin according to Judeo-Christian theology. Screwing over the rest of humankind for the rest of the earth's life(maybe longer) is a great irreversable evil, yes? Probably one of the greatest ever? Guess what?because of this original sin we were introduced into a world of choices and knowledge: construction, mathematics, science, martial arts, all means of survival somebody had to choose to create, or to learn, or to destroy (i.e. blow up a building somebody constructed).
This original sin sparked choices and necesities for choices we NEVER would've had to make back in the old garden. Now hopefully that clarifies my point that evil can in fact create choices even in its greater manifestations.But you asked about fairness; evil is not fair. That snake played their ignorance and screwed us all over. When do you get to choose?
Everyone alive now has the choice to make the world better, be it through charity, church, or whatever. All of us can do good or evil at any time. If we all did what was right all the time (it'll never happen in our lifetimes) then we'd basically have the Garden of Eden.
We could, theoretically 'choose' our way back into a happy garden of harmony. But we don't. I'm not sayin' it would be easy; the choices our ancestors have made in the past however many millenia make establishing peace pretty difficult anywhere nowadays."Do you think you could maybe keep your issues to yourself and just answer the questions? Thanks. I never said I played Everquest, you know."Lighten up, I was joking. I took your repeated 'God doesn't exist' statements with good humor, could you take my anti-game slogans with equal tolerance, please?(especially since I worship God and you don't worship computer games)"...We're talking about the full spectrum of human evil - rape, murder, torture. You're telling me that if you were being raped and murdered by a stranger your dad's response would be "suck it up, son, it'll build character?" There's a line where having someone learn ot stand on their own two feet turns into reprehensible abandonment. Exactly what life lesson am I supposed to learn when God lets me get murdered?"If it is hypothetically granted that God exists then you'd go to heaven if you were murdered. Rape and torture are terrible things, agreed, but they are choices. And while it is by no means fair for the victim, for free will to be free, God can't stop somebody in the middle of their act. There is almost always social and psychological reprecussion to punish the rapist, and the raped almost always makes a full recovery. I've heard of people who came to be because their mother was raped, but became a treasured member of the family nontheless.I understand your point, though. This is what I understand but sometimes I wonder if free will is worth the worst case scenarios that are happening somewhere every second or so? Either way, we have it and this is my understanding as to why.[This message has been edited by Born2Preach, 03-29-2004]

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Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit.

Sorry, I'd better keep in mind that a Moderator used to play it or I might suffer the wrath

"So what you're saying is that God doesn't answer prayer, because it wouldn't matter anyway if he did."No... where did you get that from the post? To become a soldier you gotta go through bootcamp, right? They make you go through it (remember the Father analogy) and tough it out, but they have a doctor on duty."Moreover I find it very interesting that it's only this life, which you characterize as insignificant, in which one is forced to make the decision that determines their fate for eternity. That's rather like asking a person to choose their college, career, and spouse on their 1st birthday."It's nothing like that at all. We've got quite some time to decide to do what we do when it comes to salvation. True, 80 years compared to an eternity is nothing, but it's quite some time compared to one year. And assuming we knew on that 1st birthday what we knew at 35, we could easily make all those decisions."In other words, God is God, so anything he does must be right, including things that if humans did them, would be wrong. What kind of moral authority is above morality? Only immoral ones."Once again you get a lot more out of someone's post than they put into it, then you go on your own schpeal about why this idea you got from their post is wrong.I missed what God did that was so wrong?

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Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit.

"The way you characterized the insignificance of this life as the reason that God doesn't do more to ameliorate the suffering of Christians."I didn't characterize anything; that was Funkman who posted that originally. You don't like what he said, go argue with him."Do you think you know now what you'll know in the hereafter? Or wouldn't it be safe to say that, according to your beliefs, the difference between what you know now and what you'll know then is as great, if not greater, than the difference between what you know now and what you knew at age 1? (That was the point of my analogy, which you seem to have missed.)"Okay, I missed it. However, seeing as there are lots of Christians running around the world right now I'd say the knowledge to believe is present in us with our current level of knowledge."Right. It's called "the logical consequence of your arguments." Since you refuse to consider them when you come up with your arguments, I have to do it for you. Here's a hint - if the logical consequence of your argument is ridiculous, then your argument is wrong"Obviously. And I haven't refused to consider anything, I've answered all of your questions to my knowledge, and if I missed any please point them out so I may answer them."sigh* The same thing I've been saying all this time - he refuses to take action to prevent suffering when he's got the knowledge and power to do so. By any reasonable or legal standard that represents immoral negligence. "We have the power and knowledge in the modern times more than ever before to establish more lasting peace treaties and better medical care. We are being negligent when we have the power, would it not be hypocritical to ask for someone else to do more? According to lots of people God has helped them individually to get through some tough times, I'd say he's doing more than we are.

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Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit.

"But if you're not stepping up to defend him, then why did you reply?"Hey, just because I disagreed with someting you said in reply doesn't mean I agree with the original message."Just because Christians think they're making an informed decision doesn't mean they are."Touche."Somebody with the wisdom, power, and knowledge to do it perfectly and easily? I don't think that's hypocritical in the least."As for right now that's a good arguement that I don't have an answer for just yet; I'll be back probably tomorrow with a response."And I observe that when folks keep track, it turns out God does nothing at all. "Who's 'folks'? I know/hear of lots of 'folks' who kept track and claim God's changed their life.Anyway, it's real late and I'm gonna get some sleep(I know it's late when I get 5 penis-enlarger popups a minute). More tomorrow.

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Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit.

"Assume God is absolutely perfect before creation. Any variation or change from absolute perfection is by definition imperfect."Agreed, but God himself didn't change, he just made something.Let's say for a minute that Born2Preach is God. You all must worship Born2Preach or else wrath, brimstone, wrath, more brimstone, and wrath some more.When Born2Preach makes a dog out of clay, is he one with the dog? No, he MADE the dog, he is not the dog.Anyway, I'll deflate my ego back to normal size and get back to the topic. When people create things, they are not the things they create. They can be in them, around them, etc., but they aren't the objects. Same thing with God.Hope that made sense, please reply if there's any problems.

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Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit.

Okay, but there are lots of recorded times when prayers did make a difference in healing. But nevermind, because how many prayers got answered or unanswered won't convince anybody on either side.I was talking about much more than a coin toss, mind you. Kind of like how you were talking about more than shin-kicking.

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Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit.