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Author Topic:   God is good and evil
atrejusan
Inactive Member


Message 71 of 114 (102311)
04-23-2004 9:38 PM


what place for reason?
I have read this thread's posts, have sensed there are (IMO) tangentials, and certainly I may have inadvertently overlooked reasonable answers to the query which follows (bear with me).
1. It is fairly reasonable, even without citing the innumerable examples which bring the notion to bear, that by faith, or by emotion or autosuggestion, one can come to believe practically anything at all.
2. For the sake of perspective, assuming the validity of "objective truth" (whether the premise is a theistic one or not), for each correct perception there is an infinite number of possible false perceptions. (For every correct appreciation of "truth" there is an infinite number of possible "lies".)
Let me first express my disregard for spurious "excuse-permutations", such as were brought up in the (IMO tangential) prayer subset of this thread. Arguing for a "possible reason", on behalf of one or more presumed entities possessing will, begs the question of whether, for all practical purposes, the exercise does not inure itself quite comfortably to statements of "chance" or "randomness". If we are to reach at the proverbial straw that leads from a murderous act through a series of otherwise disjointed events (conected reasonably only by the common thread of having occured within the same reality, our universe), we may as well assert, with equal if not greater conviction, that events so spuriously connected occur by "chance" or "randomness". From this consideration, I wonder if I may inspire an explanation for exactly *what* differentiates that series of otherwise "random" events from an alleged cosmic Will. In other words, what, other than an emotional inuring or suggestion, should impel me to believe those events are the cause of a distinct Will? (Please limit responses to that which is rational... let's not bring circular arguments into this.)
The more important question I wanted to pose is this: Given that humans are prone to believing falsehoods, and given that reason is the most reliable conduit by which to differentiate between falsehood and fact, and by which to systematically (with the lowest arbitrariness possible) categorize perceived events according to their plausibilities, would not a just and interested God ensure that his existence, and all other aspects of his message to his fallible creatures, make the most rational [human] sense possible?
To finish the implied thought: I believe that a just, interested God, who is capable of at least this much, would in fact ensure that his message (including the veracity of his alleged realness) make the absolutely most rational sense possible, and by human standards. Conversely, should it happen that his alleged message is true, but does not make the absolutely most rational sense possible (by human standards), and I were to reject it on precisely those grounds, I am certain a just, interested God would certainly not reprimand me for my decision. In fact, woe unto them who accept a message so rationally flawed (by human standards), I should think would be God's sentiment.
Your comments, and answers, please.

  
atrejusan
Inactive Member


Message 73 of 114 (102330)
04-23-2004 10:49 PM


crashfrog... it's a good thing to force new synapses... it renders relationships more easily recognized, and makes processing more efficient.
Are you inclined to evaluate my argument above your post, and decide if a just, interested God capable of doing so would in fact choose to relay his message (including the revelation of his very existence) in a manner and form that makes the absolutely most logical sense (by human standards)?
(And that, if this is the case, then the universe as we know it implies quite strongly that a just, interested God is a figment of the human imagination, and a clear example of psychological projection.)

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by crashfrog, posted 04-24-2004 2:06 AM atrejusan has not replied

  
atrejusan
Inactive Member


Message 81 of 114 (102903)
04-26-2004 7:58 PM


In reply to message 79...
quote:
Born2Preach wrote: Anyway, I believe in one God but I am open-minded that this could, infact, be a polytheistic reality.
It seems you are excluding an important other possibility, which is a universe without god, and without anything supernatural. Is that a distinct example of closed-mindedness?
quote:
In short, I'm not going to pretend I base my belief on scientific evidence, but there's more than one kind of evidence out there. Don't close your mind to just one.
"Different kinds" is rhetorical: evidence is judged by the manner in which it is perceived and analyzed. The "kind" of evidence you associate with your belief system is simply: that evidence whose analysis is a wholly internal, circular process. What is only required is a suggestion; as long as the parameters of what constitutes sufficient evidence are entirely confined to the unique experiences of individual believers, then quite simply, believers can easily come to trust in a false suggestion, without a relevant external reference to guide them to a sound verdict (ie. Is this evidence sufficient, or is it falsely suggestive?).
So there aren't "different kinds", so much as there are different standards of verification. Yours (namely, that of any believer in the supernatural) are simply very poor standards. If you concede that much, then you approach a more honest expression of your [emphasis]private system.
quote:
I believe because what I've felt and experienced.
Why?
[This message has been edited by atrejusan, 04-26-2004]
[This message has been edited by atrejusan, 04-26-2004]

It knows only that it needs, commander. But, like so many of us, it does not know what.
- Spock

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by One_Charred_Wing, posted 04-26-2004 9:51 PM atrejusan has not replied
 Message 85 by AdminAsgara, posted 04-26-2004 10:32 PM atrejusan has not replied
 Message 87 by 1.61803, posted 04-27-2004 12:55 AM atrejusan has not replied

  
atrejusan
Inactive Member


Message 86 of 114 (102935)
04-26-2004 11:00 PM


Admin... I did not intend my language (such as claims of "arrogance" or "flawed") to imply insults. If I were addressing a stance of logic, the terms do not necessarily entail an emotional claim, or a personal affront.
If I have specificed that I used the terms in the detached, impersonal manner, as I explained in my previous post (I'm not sure in which thread), is that sufficient?
I'm looking to see where I've misunderstood things.

  
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