The power of prayers vs. The Divine plan

if he planned not to have a plan but just wing it.If fact, I believe that is exactly what happened and REALLY is the Divine Plan.God said, "Let's set up a system where random mutations can happen so that as conditions change some might do better and gradually evolve into...into..Who knows? I can stop by every eon or so and see what's new."

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

The universe is non deterministic as far as I am concerned. Nothing is carved in stone...the wave form could zing or zong..I am beginning to believe the uncertainty principal permiates all existance. It is a non clock work universe and I think that god if he exist is sometimes surprized. JMHO.

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"One is punished most for ones virtues" Fredrick Neitzche

if it were not? What could be more boring than an eternity of predictability.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

perhaps a eternity of watching Ross paint???

Hi all,Wow! That was certainly a lot of opinions ranging from the typical to the profound! I will try to address some of the questions regarding the issues I raised and perhaps I can shed light on some of my ill-expressed ideas. I will attempt to reply to everyone in a single post to conserve space, so please do not be offended if I have missed one of your major points. Do continue pursuing it if you believe it to be important.To Spiritman:
Concerning your questions about what omnipotency and omniscience has to do with free will, please refer to post 8 and 13 (By Asgara). It is not that I cannot answer your queries, but it appears that Asgara's views are somewhat similar to my own on this issue (as with her reasoning). If you wish, I can go into more depth in my next post.To Cynic1:
You stated that "There is a difference between the idea that God commands the outcome and the idea that God simply knows it." In my opinion, this statement holds true if and only if the all-knowing and all-powerful God are not the same God.If you are the creator of the Earth's atmosphere (not omnipotence, but will suffice for the sake of the argument), and you have prior knowledge of what day it is going to rain from now until eternity (again, not omniscience but will suffice for the sake of the argument), then how can you declare that you didn't make it that way? Unless you bring dice-rolling (that is, you randomly choose the order in which the event will occur) into the equation (and you have not done so), you MUST be responsible for all weather patterns.Please keep in mind that the world may be (and I am doing so as we speak) perceived as a huge and almost infinitely complex Rube Goldberg device: where the initiation of a single motion (in this case Creation) is directly responsible for all consequences thereafter. As the creator of this Rube Goldberg device, I imagine that God is ultimately responsible for all consequences (events) that occur in this world, and hence in the course of all history.Your argument that God inserts novel stimulus into the world at any interval he/she chooses does not take away the validity of my argument. Just as a Rube Goldberg device will continue to operate to reach its destined goal, so will the world operate with or without the guiding hands of an all-powerful God. We may think that we have free will, and our actions may even appear to reflect that, but the fact that you have a creator who knew the entirety of your life AND was responsible for your creation (via a long lineage from back in Adam and Eve's days), means that your every move must have been predetermined (again, the keyword). The answer of whether or not you will pray when you are subjected to any one or many events that occur in your life was already known when God initiated the machine that is creation. Thus its (your prayer's) outcome bears no weight in affecting the outcomes of any later events.Of course, all the above reasoning breaks down if you take away the assumption that God is not Omniscient and instead assume that there is free will, but that is not my purpose. All I am trying to do is to show that the two premises (omnipotence/omniscience vs. free will) cannot co-exist, which directly contradicts with your statement that "Omniscience can work with the idea of free will". Thank you for your input.Asgara:
Most succinctly put. I applaud you.Final note for Spiritman: (message 14)
If you are only guessing at God's omniscience, and you are unsure about his/her omnipotence, then your position does not conform to the assumptions I have stated and so any points you raise may not correspond to the questions I raised. Please make a note of that.Yours truly,

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"Respect is like money, it can only be earned. When it is given, it becomes pittance"

Ever thought that some prayers might go unaswered intentionally because there will be a better outcome in the longrun because of it?

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Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit.

Ever think that sort of smart-ass answer might piss off anybody who ever prayed for the well-being of someone dying of a senseless act of violence, a pointless disease, or some other generally unfair situation?Seriously I hope you never utter such an obscenity where somebody who lost a loved one to September 11th, or some such, might hear it.

jar A god who acts as an absentee landlord is a somewhat passive god.I consider this is a point of view that still avoids discussion of how does a god create a universe that is physical in nature without invoking magic. There are serious issues raised by the existence of a god that invoke paradoxes of the sort that,unlke 'normal' pardoxes,are not resolved by a new approach to thinking about them.

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"For the mind of man is far from the nature of clear and equal glass,wherein the beams of things should reflect according to their true incidence;nay,it is rather like an enchanted glass,full of superstition and imposture.if it be not delivered and reduced." Sir Francis Bacon

quote:

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You stated that "There is a difference between the idea that God commands the outcome and the idea that God simply knows it." In my opinion, this statement holds true if and only if the all-knowing and all-powerful God are not the same God.

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Yeah, I did. I was trying to argue from another point of view and didn't really think about it enough. You and Asgara are right that an omniscient God could not coexist with free will. I erred and I apologize.I think that the Biblical (depending on interpretation, of course) idea of God more appropriately fits the model of a God who does not have perfect knowledge of the future, at least as far as it pertains to free will. However, as you said, this is irrelevant to your argument. Although I do think a topic about God's omniscience would make for an interesting discussion.

An assumption that free will = God? Well, to have this assumption you would have to show how a universe without God would eliminate all choice.

No, my premise is free will does = God. Therefore, logically, No God means no free will. You see, I'm trying to show that we can "assume" anything we like. Post 1 "assumes" that freewill means there is no God/s because of two statements (assumption/premise). He has said that God's omnipotence/omniscience, makes this assumption correct. But I am saying that my analogy shows how my assumption could be correct. The operative word here is "assumption". An atheist sees that there is no God, yet I cannot justify that freewill must equal no God. The example of Abraham for example. There are many biblical instances, where freewill is a necessity.

spirit man The point is that there can be no freewill if there is an omniscient God,not an absense of a God.If you or I are to have free will it cannot be something previously known within the mind of God since that implies that He has access to a future state of yours and therefore must have a definite means of arriving at that knowledge which again implies a universe in which you have already made such a decision that he can access.
If you state it in any fashion to side with omniscience it can be shown that a situation occurs whereby the omniscience leads to a contradiction.

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"For the mind of man is far from the nature of clear and equal glass,wherein the beams of things should reflect according to their true incidence;nay,it is rather like an enchanted glass,full of superstition and imposture.if it be not delivered and reduced." Sir Francis Bacon

But people have shown how omniscience does not have to spoil freewill. I can kick the football, God can know I am going to do it without getting involved. The kicking of the football can be freewill. Just because God is all knowing doesn't mean it contradict it.My statement is this now; "freewill = God". Abraham had a choice whether to slay Izaac or not, yet my point goes ignored.The fact is we really really do have freewill, From your statement, I can logically deduce that No God may equal freewill, but that doesn't mean freewill = No God. All we can say is that No God would = freewill. Big deal though - you still have to show why there can be no freewill if there is a God. Omniscience does not HAVE TO affect freewill, my analogy has shown that truth.This message has been edited by spirit man, 05-15-2004 02:56 PM

If god knew you were going to kick the football before you were created then no...sorry ... no free will. You were created with god having the express knowledge that you were going to kick it.If god is omniscient and omnipotent and the only creator of life then he knows, before you are created, that you will be:

• a believer
• an atheist
• an ax murderer
• a pacifist...etc
• a football kicker
  

IF god allows you to be born knowing that you will be any one of these things, then you have no choice. It is ordained long before you will ever come into being.The only way out of this is if god doesn't have one of the above mentioned attributes, either omniscience, omnipotence, or being the sole creator of life. A god WITH all three properties = no free will

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Asgara
"Embrace the pain, spank your inner moppet, whatever....but get over it"http://asgarasworld.bravepages.com

Asgara:What is the source for these beliefs of yours ?