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Author Topic:   How does Complexity demonstrate Design
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1373 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 8 of 321 (114046)
06-10-2004 12:33 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Perdition
06-09-2004 10:37 PM


this is a brilliant assertion.
i'll be sure to add it my new theory -- stupid design.
anyhow. allow me to quote-mine behe for a second here:
quote:
I do not say that just because they can't be produced natural selection, they're uh, products of intelligent design
http://www.ncseweb.org/..._dr_michael_behe_dr_10_31_2002.asp

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 Message 7 by Perdition, posted 06-09-2004 10:37 PM Perdition has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Perdition, posted 06-10-2004 12:48 AM arachnophilia has replied

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1373 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 10 of 321 (114057)
06-10-2004 1:01 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Perdition
06-10-2004 12:48 AM


well, i'm really just being a smart ass.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Perdition, posted 06-10-2004 12:48 AM Perdition has replied

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1373 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 20 of 321 (114356)
06-11-2004 3:31 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by John Paul
06-10-2004 2:50 PM


Re: It is not just "complex"
It is not just "complex" that equals design. It is when complexity meets specification that we infer design. And if you don't get it why don't you try reading abouty the subject. Start with Dembski, Behe and Ratszch.
i'm starting with behe. so far, he's full of crap. here's the quote i posted earlier:
I do not say that just because they can't be produced natural selection, they're uh, products of intelligent design
also, irreducibly complex systems may not have subsystems by his own definition (page 38-39). i'm pretty sure any component parts can be read as subsystems of amino-acids, nucleotides, dna, molecules, atoms, and so forth. so, any irreducibly complex system cannot have parts. and so nothing is irreducibly complex. qed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by John Paul, posted 06-10-2004 2:50 PM John Paul has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by John Paul, posted 06-11-2004 10:51 AM arachnophilia has replied

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1373 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 59 of 321 (114623)
06-12-2004 2:48 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by John Paul
06-11-2004 10:51 AM


Re: It is not just "complex"
"Quite the opposite, I clearly wrote in Darwin’s Black Box that even if the individual parts had their own functions, that still does not account for the irreducible complexity of the system. In fact, it would most likely exacerbate the problem, as I stated when considering whether parts lying around a garage could be used to make a mousetrap without intelligent intervention."
this quote, if anything, shows that behe is full of crap.
think about it for a second, how can something be irreducible if it can be reduced to components? behe argues repeatedly that he's not concerned with major systems, but the minor subsystems it is composed of. have you read darwin's black box? i'm working on it.
can you reduce the bacterial flagellum to a subset of working components? yes? then it's not irreducible.
but a more important question: can parts around the garage randomly make a mousetrap? all it takes is a paint can and an unsteady shelf, and bad luck on the mouse's part.
now, if it my garage were a biological system, and found that it LIKED killing mice, perhaps next step would be evolving that unstead shelf into a trigger. some kind of luring device might be next. maybe a propulsion system for the paint can to improve reaction time.
unfortunately, my garage is not biological. to compare it to a biological system is silly. genetics and generations don't apply to the garage, and neither does variation and natural selection.

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1373 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 60 of 321 (114624)
06-12-2004 2:52 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by John Paul
06-11-2004 3:30 PM


Re: on the dishonesty of an evolutionist
To falsify the design inference just show us the flagellum can evolve via purely natural processes. Don't blame us because you can't support your position.
do a google search.
there's literally tons of examples.

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1373 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 67 of 321 (114767)
06-13-2004 1:32 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by DC85
06-13-2004 12:56 AM


Re: Some Peoples Kids!
no, complexity is an arbitrary measure. it doesn't necessarily go for less complex to more complex either, sometimes just the opposite.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by DC85, posted 06-13-2004 12:56 AM DC85 has replied

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1373 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 70 of 321 (114773)
06-13-2004 1:51 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by DarkStar
06-13-2004 1:37 AM


Re: Some Peoples Kids!
details change, yes.
the overall theory has not so much as wavered. the biggest evolutionary shift in the last 150 years was the discovery of archaeopteryx. and we didn't throw away the other parts.
and what has continually changed? i followed popular paleontology from the age of about three, and i haven't seen a lot of continual changing. i mean, there was the occasional study that showed a new dinosaur a million years back from when we thought they popped up, but no major evolutionary shakeup. just a few minor revisions.

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