How does Complexity demonstrate Design

In a complex design is the designer not also complex and if we follow the logic of the statement that complexity indicates design to its apparent conclusion how then does the designer escape being designed?

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You paddle your kayak up the river from your camp to fetch your camera which you left on a rock upstream a bit. The river flows at a uniform 2 mi/hr. You paddle (on still water) at a uniform 3 mi/hr. It takes 30 minutes to reach your camera. If you paddle all the way back to your camp, how long will the return trip take?

John Paul I beg to differ but is not the point of people saying there is intelligent design is that there is anecessity for a complex system to have a designer? According to Philip Johnson. What could be more complex than a designer that put this together.

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You paddle your kayak up the river from your camp to fetch your camera which you left on a rock upstream a bit. The river flows at a uniform 2 mi/hr. You paddle (on still water) at a uniform 3 mi/hr. It takes 30 minutes to reach your camera. If you paddle all the way back to your camp, how long will the return trip take?

John Paul Excuse me for being thick but how exactly do you have intelligent design without the intelligence? Should we not then call it the design theory and remove any misunderstanding that is present?

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You paddle your kayak up the river from your camp to fetch your camera which you left on a rock upstream a bit. The river flows at a uniform 2 mi/hr. You paddle (on still water) at a uniform 3 mi/hr. It takes 30 minutes to reach your camera. If you paddle all the way back to your camp, how long will the return trip take?

John Paul Which one is it,apparent design or optimal design?

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You paddle your kayak up the river from your camp to fetch your camera which you left on a rock upstream a bit. The river flows at a uniform 2 mi/hr. You paddle (on still water) at a uniform 3 mi/hr. It takes 30 minutes to reach your camera. If you paddle all the way back to your camp, how long will the return trip take?

John Paul [qs] Itelligent just means an intelligence, even one acting stupidly, is the cause of the design.Then if the intelligence is not necessary to the understanding of the design then just what do you put forth in this theory that seperates it from evolution?I mean,you must of necessity point to an intelligent design in order to make your case and this is where the house of cards falls down.Intelligent design is obviously needing to show how an intelligence is able to do the design.Abiogenesis is at least able to make use of chemistry and physics to show a plausible model that is consistent with the evidence.There are enormous amounts of information tying together the various phenomena of life that we observe around into a cohesive whole.

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You paddle your kayak up the river from your camp to fetch your camera which you left on a rock upstream a bit. The river flows at a uniform 2 mi/hr. You paddle (on still water) at a uniform 3 mi/hr. It takes 30 minutes to reach your camera. If you paddle all the way back to your camp, how long will the return trip take?

John Paul All life is composed of atoms of chemical elements whose interaction produces new and novel compounds.These follow laws of physics inherent in the constituent particles.Now it is not a great stretch of imagination to see the pattern that shows the same progression in interaction as we go through different types of compounds.Take oxygen and hydrogen. Seperate they are gases at room temperatures while in combiation they become liquid at that same temperature.The properties of water are well known as are the physics behind these elements.I can list many others.Sodium and Potassium, two deadly poisons seperately but together they are salt necessary for life.Carbon and Oxygen.Hydrogen and chlorine.Now take those combinations and have them interact forming compounds ever more complex and with even greater ranges of characteristics and it has been shown that precusors of life can be formed.That we have not been able to duplicate the very beginning of organic life in no way is a blight on our model but rather is a reckoning of how difficult it is to be sure of what it is we must look for.Perhaps a gamma ray burst from a nearby supernova was the necessary catalyst. You surely cannot be speaking of biology but,if so, please enlighten us as to how you arrive at that conclusion.

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You paddle your kayak up the river from your camp to fetch your camera which you left on a rock upstream a bit. The river flows at a uniform 2 mi/hr. You paddle (on still water) at a uniform 3 mi/hr. It takes 30 minutes to reach your camera. If you paddle all the way back to your camp, how long will the return trip take?

DarkStar No problem, thickness is an inherited trait in my family.LOL What observation have you made that is sufficient to show that complex = design without refering to a designer? If you can do so then why is a designer brought in? If you cannot then you must explain the means by which a designer accomplishes the building of the design.

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You paddle your kayak up the river from your camp to fetch your camera which you left on a rock upstream a bit. The river flows at a uniform 2 mi/hr. You paddle (on still water) at a uniform 3 mi/hr. It takes 30 minutes to reach your camera. If you paddle all the way back to your camp, how long will the return trip take?

DarkStar Alrighty now! I am going to accept that we leave the intelligent designer out of the theory of intelligent design.Now,then,please do tell me what the theory of intelligent design is without refering to an intelligent designer!In other words you will state in your next post to me the theory of intelligent design correct? I await your response.This message has been edited by sidelined, 06-13-2004 05:39 AM

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You paddle your kayak up the river from your camp to fetch your camera which you left on a rock upstream a bit. The river flows at a uniform 2 mi/hr. You paddle (on still water) at a uniform 3 mi/hr. It takes 30 minutes to reach your camera. If you paddle all the way back to your camp, how long will the return trip take?

DarkStar Pattern and design are obvious of course but intelligent design necessitates us asking,first,what is it about a design that we find to be intelligent, and second,in postulating that intelligence we need explain how the intelligence manifests itself in the design.That is to say,by what mechanism is the intelligence we claim to be there able to physically manipulate the design that we see. Of course not,because no one will dispute that the automobile is designed.We also have staggering large volumes of the means by which an automobile is put together.The same is not as cut and dried in your intelligent design stipulation.If you could do the same for your proposal of intelligence in the design you claim to see then we have a means of debating the pros and cons of the assertion. I also recalled this from your post# 62 So as we can see it appears you assert intelligence is there to be found in nature.I stipulate then that you have indeed led the conversation beyond mere description of design.I wish you to explain what you mean by intelligent if not a thinking scheming mind somehow situated in a position that allows its intelligence to be reflected in nature of the design you state you observe.This is where I am misunderstanding you and if you would please clarify the meaning of intelligent in this regard.Thanks D.S.P.S. If I am making it hard on you to clarify I will not apololgize. LOLThis message has been edited by sidelined, 06-13-2004 10:08 PM

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You paddle your kayak up the river from your camp to fetch your camera which you left on a rock upstream a bit. The river flows at a uniform 2 mi/hr. You paddle (on still water) at a uniform 3 mi/hr. It takes 30 minutes to reach your camera. If you paddle all the way back to your camp, how long will the return trip take?

DarkStarI just came across this little Gem: What the hell is "absolutistic function"?This message has been edited by sidelined, 06-20-2004 01:37 PM

bob_gray98Well in the quote you put forth can find definitions for the words used in it. Absolutistic function does not exist anywhere I can find it.I guess we poor slobs must be content to use language for the purposes of communication rather than for the confusion of we mere mortals by the expansive,superincumbent, genius of those who are clearly our betters.We are not worthy!! LOLOLOL

DarkStar I am having fun as well as asking you to explain the meaning of absolutistic function since I,in my denseness, cannot find the word anywhere.Therefore,I humbly beseech thee to give the origin of the phrase you have used here and enlighten myself and others as to the meaning of said phrase.