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Author | Topic: What and Where are the Terms of the New Covenant? | |||||||||||||||||||
purpledawn Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
Yep, group thing definitely didn't work for the Hebrews.
A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:Now you getting back to where we started on this thread. Mark and Matthew don't say the word new; only Luke who worked with Paul. Book of Luke is considered to be written after the letters of Paul. See Paul's influence again.quote:Notice "I will" and "with the house of Israel and the house of Judah". No ifs and nothing about accepting the messiah. Jeremiah 31:33-34 ..."I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts, I will be their God, and they will be my people. No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest," declares the Lord. "For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more." If the New Covenant you speak of is this one, then there would be no need for Paul. (No longer will a man teach his neighbor...) God will forgive and forget. Didn't say he would cast them aside for their sins. And God continues....
Jeremiah 31:35-37 This is what the Lord says, he who appoints the sun to shine by day, who decrees the moon and stars to shine by night, who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar--the Lord Almighty is his name: "only if these decrees vanish from my sight," declares the Lord, "will the descendants of Israel ever cease to be a nation before me." This is what the Lord says; "only if the heavens above can be measured and the foundations of the earth below be searched out will I reject all the descendants of Israel because of all they have done," declares the Lord. I don't think moon and stars stopped shining after the death of Christ and I don't think they were able to measure the heavens or search the foundations of the earth. I still see the moon and stars shinging today. Can we measure the heavens or search the foundations of the earth today?quote:I'm rejecting your presentation of Paul because you present him in a way that does contradict the OT. Yashanet (the one you think twists Paul's teachings) does very well at keeping Paul more in line with God's earlier promises. They don't present God as going against his earlier promises.
Matthew Studyquote:That's as bad as the polls I see on the news about whatever % of Americans are happy with the U.S. President or unhappy etc. Not once have I ever been asked about how I feel about what any President is doing. Was Jesus able to talk with every single Jew during his ministry? Did every single Jew see all the miracles?quote:Paul's letters would not have been considered Scripture within his lifetime. By Scripture I mean those things that are cannonized. They may have been considered "writings", but if Peter means true Scripture, then this was not written during the time of Paul. quote:The question is, which twist is the right twist? A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
Why do you reject what Jesus said: "I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest leter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished." (Matthew 5:17-18)
Which by your own words quote:The "new covenant" spoken of in Jeremiah 31 is not in effect. quote:As of yet, no one has shown me where in the OT that God tells the Hebrews they have to accept the messiah as part of the Mosaic covenant. Not very upfront to hear about that part of the covenant until a thousand or so years later. quote:This still doesn't end the Mosaic covenant. "When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard Jesus' parables, they knew he was talking about them...." Matthew 21:45 According to the paragraph that followed, your phrase was referring to the Pharisees and not Israel. I don't see that Christianity is producing any better fruit than the Jews. A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:Good Grief! That's a blessing from Jacob to his sons and not part of the Mosaic covenant. How long was that before Moses? Over 400 years??? quote:God said he would deal with the person himself who did not listen to the prophet, not reject the entire nation. You still haven't shown me where in the OT that God tells the Hebrews they have to accept the messiah as part of the Mosaic covenant. Not that they have to listen to every prophet that passes the test and obey God's word that came from that prophet. BTW, what do they have to accept about the messiah?Believe that he is the annointed one? Believe that he is a deity? Believe that he came back from the dead? What did Jesus tell them to do (since they are supposed to obey what the prophet/messiah tells them came from God)?What words did he give them from God? A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote: Exodus 12:40 Now the time that the sons of Israel lived in Egypt was four hundred and thirty years. Where do you get 198yrs?
Torah Genesis 49:10 The scepter shall not depart from Judah, Nor the rulers staff from between his feet; So that tribute shall come to him ( Shiloh, understood as shai loh tribute to him, following Midrash; cf. Isa. 18.7. Meaning of Heb. uncertain lit. Until he comes to Shiloh.) And the homage of peoples be his. Reads a little different in the Torah.
Torah Exodus 23:20 I am sending an angel before you to guard you on the way and to bring you to the place that I have made ready. 21 Pay heed to him and obey him. Do not defy him, for he will not pardon your offenses, since My Name is in him; 22 but if you obey him and do all that I say, I will be an enemy to your enemies and a foe to your foes. You forgot a line.This has nothing to do with Jesus. Still doesn't say disown and give the farm away! quote:Excellent! He told them to teach so therefore the new covenant in Jeremiah is not in effect because at that time no one will need to teach. Also since he told them to teach obviously it is not written on our hearts. What things did Jesus command that we are supposed to observe? The rest of that line: and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."
So still waiting on the end of age, when the New Jerusalem is expected and the new covenant as defined in Jeremiah is to take place.
quote:Which brings us right back to the Mosaic Laws. So the Mosaic Covenant didn't end for the Jews and the Jerusalem Church expected the Gentiles to follow those principles, but not including circumcision since it was part of the Abrahamic covenant. What you have shown me is Jesus teaching the Jewish religion and that nothing ended for the Jews. You may say I'm looking for loop holes, but a contract is serious stuff and claiming that God dumped the Jews and then referring back to vague references, isn't quite contractual. God disciplined the Jews, but I don't see that he disowned them. Now the religion that Paul created for the Gentiles is supposedly based on the Law of Christ which no one actually wants to list what that means other than love your neighbor etc. You and WT have opened my eyes to some very interesting facts. Thanks A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
It is a shame that the Hebrew Bible was written so terribly that they needed Paul to interpret it for them so long after the fact.
From what you are showing me, we can't take the OT at face value and only Paul knows the secret. We have to trust Paul and his vision which no one else saw or heard. Unfortunately Paul doesn't write plainly either and has been interpreted every which way but loose. We can't take him at face value and have to trust yet another person to interpret Paul. No wonder the Jews couldn't obey God. He speaks in riddles and apparently we won't get the answers until the end of time. Not really a fair and loving God from what I can see. Sets people up for failure. You're making an all powerful God sound just as unpredictable as humans. A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:You assume. You have no way of knowing if they listened to the holy spirit or not. I'm really not going to lose sleep or the 430 years thing. My point was that there was a very long period of time between a statement (Gen 49:10) that you say refers to The Messiah (Jesus, not just any messiah) and the time when the laws were given by Moses. Whether it is 198 or 430 it is a long time between statement and agreement. Not a fair way to do up a contract. How do you or Paul figure that Shiloh refers directly to Jesus?quote:Where have I used Paul out of context? You and WT are the ones quoting Paul. I'm looking for the new covenant from Jesus not Paul. The really big problem here is that we don't know in what context it was truly written. Like I've said before, Paul's letters are only one side of the conversation.quote:What things? Jesus was talking about miracles in the previous paragraph. If we are to read and learn, then nothing should be hidden. A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote: (Genesis 3:14-15) "And Jehovah God proceeded to say to the serpent: " . . . And I shall put enmity between you and the woman and between your seed and her seed. He will bruise you in the head and you will bruise him in the heel." So the 'seed' was to someday destroy the devil. Talk about out of context! Seed as it is used here is plural meaning descendants. Why would the devil need descendants? Sometimes a snake is just a snake.
Genesis 22:17-18 ...indeed I will greatly bless you, and I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your seed shall possess the gate of their enemies. "In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice." Again the usage means descendants (plural) not one specific person.
(Genesis 49:10) "The scepter will not turn aside from Judah, neither the commander's staff from between his feet, until Shiloh comes; and to him the obedience of the peoples will belong." This is still a blessing from Jacob to his son Judah. Not a promise from God.quote:But that's not what it says. The concordances I've seen aren't sure of the meaning. (1 Chronicles 17:11-14) "And it must occur that when your days have come to the full [for you] to go [to be] with your forefathers, I shall certainly raise up your seed after you that will come to be one of your sons, and I shall indeed firmly establish his kingship. He is the one that will build me a house, and I shall certainly establish his throne firmly to time indefinite. I myself shall become his father, and he himself will become my son; and my loving-kindness I shall not remove from him the way I removed it from the one that happened to be prior to you. And I will cause him to stand in my house and in my kingship to time indefinite, and his throne will itself become one lasting to time indefinite." Sounds like Solomon and again no mention of a messiah dealing with eternal life.quote:If the kings had remained "faithful", there would have been no need for the messiah. (Ezekiel 21:25-27) "And as for you, O deadly wounded, wicked chieftain of Israel... quote:Kings in Israel were gone, but Ezekiel didn't mention Judah or Shiloh. (Isaiah 9:6) "For there has been a child born to us, there has been a son given to us; and the princely rule will come to be upon his shoulder. Not future tense.
1 Samuel 16:1 ...Fill your horn with oil and go; I will send you to Jesse the Bethlehemite, for I have selected a king for Myself among his sons." quote:From the way this reads, Jesse had more than one son. So the messiah may not have to be from the line of David. Besides, if you read all of Isaiah 11, none of the rest came to be during the life of Jesus or afterwards. It didn't say anyone had to believe in miracles, the law would end, or that the messiah would die and rise again. Didn't say anything about eternal life. What you have shown me deals with temporal life, not eternal life.
quote:Ah, guilt by association. So even though Yashanet believes in Christ, but chooses to continue the Jewish tradition, they are wrong in their interpretation of Paul? Are you saying the Holy Spirit doesn't guide them? You assume that I'm not guided by God or the Holy Spirit in what I understand because it is different than yours. There's not much I an do about that. I prayed for the truth and much has been revealed. You on the other hand have not shown me that the OT supports your position or presentation of Paul's interpretation. No one has yet shown me that Jesus gave terms of a new covenant or that the old ends. A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
Now I see what you mean by context. Your idea of OT context is in relation to the NT not in reading the words as they are written.
Context: the parts of a sentence, paragraph, etc. immediately next to or surrounding a specified word or passage and determining its exact meaning (Webster's) I have 43 years of Christianity under my belt, but I never did believe that God played games with people like the Greek Gods supposedly did.
quote:In the true sense of the word context, this line just talks about people and snakes. If we use your premise that "seed" means one specific child, then the snake/Devil also had one specific child. Who was the Devil's specific offspring and when did Jesus give him a lethal head wound?quote:I am quite familiar with this statement and Paul is wrong about the use of the word seed and seeds. When referring to descendants (plural), the word "seeds" is not a term used. NRSV Genesis 22:17-18 I will indeed bless you, and I will make your offspring as numerous as the stars of heaven... And your offspring shall possess the gate of their enemies.... The Complete Bible 1923 An American TranslationGenesis 22:17-18 ...I will indeed bless you, and will surely make your descendants as numerious as the stars of the sky, or the sands that are on the seashore so that your descendants shall take possession of the cities of their enemies and through your descendants all the nations of the earth.... Still means descendants not one specific descendant. It is quite clear in the OT when the word means one descendant. (Gen 21:13, 2Sam 7:12, Isa 41:8)
(1 Chronicles 17:11-14) ". . . I shall certainly establish his throne firmly to time indefinite. I myself shall become his father, and he himself will become my son; and my loving-kindness I shall not remove from him. . . . And I will cause him to stand in my house and in my kingship to time indefinite , and his throne will itself become one lasting to time indefinite." It is the continuation of a tempral monarchy and still doesn't refer to a specific messiah or personal eternal life, no matter how bold you make it.quote:Here again, I think we have a different idea of what the messiah was supposed to accomplish. If the kings remained faithful, then God would not have sent nations against them; and if God had not sent nations against them or scattered them, then God would not have needed to send a messiah to destroy the enemy and bring Israel back together. What do you believe God was to send the messiah to save the Jews from?
quote:What you say is also in conflict with scripture. Mt 5:17-18 "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished...." Lu 16:17"But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one stroke of a letter of the Law to fail...." From what I see from my window, heaven and earth are still here. God did not end any of his everlasting temporal covenants with the Hebrews or their descendants. I have not seen in the OT (within its proper context) where God cites belief in a specific messiah as a condition of keeping these covenants perpetual. Now if everything was accomplished then obviously heaven and earth would not be here and we wouldn't be having this discussion. Again Jesus did not claim an end to the Mosaic covenant or laws.Paul is not the messiah or a prophet. Paul may have been a student of Gamaliel, but we don't really know if he was a good student or not. We don't even know if he agreed with the teachings of Gamaliel. quote:Which means what exactly? That past tense means present or that past tense means future? Some translations have it written in present tense. So was it written in present tense or past tense? Was it written in past tense and these transcribers took that to mean present tense?quote:Paul is still not Jesus! Jesus gave no indication that the Mosaic Covenant, which deals with temporal life, would come to and end until the earth disappeared. This would obviously be the end of temporal life as we know it. The Abrahamic and Mosaic covenants have nothing to do with eternal life and never did. They deal with temporal life (day to day living).No need for either or part to end to make room for a covenant dealing with eternal life. And so the dance continues! A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:When the NT makes a claim based on what the OT says, then you take what the OT says within its own context (time, space, culture) for the meaning. Since the NT writers are using the OT as proof of their veracity, then what they claim the OT says and what the OT says within in its own context should agree. That's how one keeps from being duped by clever evangelists. Besides, which translation is correct?
Holy Bible, translated from the Latin Volgate I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed; she shall crush they head, and though shalt lie in wait for her heel. The Complete Bible 1923I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your posterity and hers; they shall attack you in the head, and you shall attack them in the heel. TorahI will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your offspring and hers; They shall strike at your head, And you shall strike at their heel. Hard to have absolutes when there are various translations.Plus you still haven't told me who the Devil's progeny are. Then when you consider the part about:
NIV Genesis 3:14 The LORD God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this, Cursed are you more than all cattle, And more than every beast of the field; On your belly you will go, And dust you will eat All the days of your life... we are still talking about snakes and people.quote:I wasn't debating the validity of messianic prophecies with you. My point was that God did not include believing in the messiah (specificlly Jesus) as part of the Abrahamic or Mosaic covenant with the premise that if they did not, these covenants would be canceled in part or in full and the Jews would be disowned. Therefore neither the Abrahamic nor the Mosaic covenant ended for the Jews. By your own statements the new covenant of Jeremiah 31 won't be in effect until the world to come. What you say Jesus put in place of the Mosaic law is the Law of Christ or the Law of Love. Then what you show as characteristics of the Law of Love are the same behavioral teachings of Judaism. So what is the purpose of canceling the Mosaic law and then placing a generic law in its place? It just means the culture has to start all over in determining the specifics of the generic law. Christianity jumps right back to the Mosaic laws to determine the specifics. So what did canceling the Mosaic laws accomplish? A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
WmScott:
In Message 69 I wrote: Where does God tell Abraham the covenant was for the Hebrews to become followers of the messiah and become his spirit anointed followers? You answered: This point is progressively revealed in the Bible, the out working of the sacred secret. You then proceeded to bring up scriptures to show how it was progressively revealed. I disagreed that the OT scriptures you showed me said that the Hebrews would lose the covenants if they did not believe in a messiah or Jesus specificly, secretly or otherwise. A contract should not be full of secrets. Do this for me. Make a simple list of the terms of the NC or the Law of Christ or the Law of Love. Put it in your own words and the scripture you pulled it from. Don't just copy down the whole NT. Thanks A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
Understanding Judaism, by Rabbi Benjamin Blech writes: Judaism on One FootA non-Jew, the Talmud tells us, went first to Shammai, a famous rabbinic figure of the time, and asked if he could be taught the entire Torah "on one foot." Shammai turned him away. He didn't believe in teaching a crash course in Judaism. Then the non-Jew went to Hillel, who was known for his patience and kindness. Of course, it was a formindable task to boil Judasim down to one major teaching. But Hillel wouldn't turn the man away, so he tackled the question: "On one foot, the most important idea of Judasim is not to do to your fellow man what you would not want him to do to you." The master teaching of our religion, he explained, is what stems from the verse in Leviticus (19:18), "You shall love your neighor as yourself." Hillel then advised the man to go and study more. From the answers I've received, Jesus summed up God's new covenant or law of love with two phrases:
Mark 12:29-30 "The foremost is, `HEAR, O ISRAEL! THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD; AND YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH.' "The second is this, `YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.' There is no other commandment greater than these." Looks like all the rest is commentary. I'm going on vacation. Enjoy July! A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger. |
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