What and Where are the Terms of the New Covenant?

Matthew 5: The Fulfillment of the Law(17) "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.(18) I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.(19) Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.(20) For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven."Is this the "Covenant" you're looking for?Peace. Ab.

Purple:Personally, I think the entire post-Temple "Christian" movement was a revolutionary movement in reaction to Pharisiacal/Rabbinical Judaism; and that there is no specific "Contract" between the parties to the agreement, rather the terms continue to evolve at the whimsy of the "Church."On the otherhand, Rabbinical Judaism seems to have gone overboard as well by exponentially expanding the "Contract" with all that "Oral" Torah, plus a plethora of "Tradition," that certainly did not exist in pre-Temple Judaism ... at least not according to the Sadducees.Hillel changed the terms of the Contract with all kinds of twists of legalese that tempered the strictness of the Law. But then again, Maimonides subsequently determined that there are 613 Commandments made a part of the Contract as dictated in the 40 years from Sinai to the Jordan.It's easy to understand how the revolutionaries wanted a simplified Contract. Simple folks have simple ways.Peace. Ab.

Purple says: "People will have different ideas of what the new covenant is, just as people will have different ideas of what a true Christian is."Dr. R.W. Bernard says, http://www.apollonius.net/bernard1e.htmlTheosophy Library Online offers: http://www.theosophy.org/...s/teachers/ApolloniusOfTyana.htmAbshalom asks, "Who really knows?"Peace.

Purple:In Message 16, you say, "I was curious if anyone in this forum could show me what I couldn't see, but apparently not."Unfortunately, most of what you will get in this forum as response to questions like yours will be repetitive stock cliches from highly personalized "Christian" agendas, or repetitive stock flippancies from highly personalized "Atheist" agendas. Due to the forum guidelines, a good number of the responses are accompanied by quotes of or links to "supporting data" all of which is highly speculative, unsubstantiated reference material published by other folks with highly personalized agendas. (See "Why The Exodus Myth Exists" for a perfect example of a 10-page circus of flippancies, personal agrandizements, repetitive stock BS, etc.)Personally, I just cruise the Internet for wacky ideas that stimulate my dying brain cells, and forward some links from time to time that somehow relate to the discussion at hand regardless of the validity or saneness of their sources. Cheap Thrills!Peace. Ab.

Re (in Message 23): "Both of these rabbis (Hillel and Shammai) lived a couple generations before Yeshua began teaching."Rabbi Hillel lived from 60 BCE until 10 CE.Rabbi Shammai lived from 50 BCE until 30 CE.Both of their schools were actively instructing students with regard to their opposing views on Torah at about the time of Jesus' birth.I think both rabbis and their variant veiwpoints were contemporary with or only one generation removed from the teachings and viewpoints of Jesus.Rabbi Gamiel, Hillel's grandson, reportedly was Paul's rabbi when Paul was Saul of Tarsus. This makes it appear as if Jesus' teachings were two or three generations removed from Hillel's.Peace. Ab.This message has been edited by Abshalom, 06-07-2004 11:31 AM

Purple:I was supplying the dates only to show that it seems the similar and divergent teachings of Hillel, Shammai, and Jesus were all balled up around the same timeframe (the 2nd Temple/Roman occupation period) during the late 1st. Century BCE/Early to Mid-1st. Century CE.Peace. Ab.

Simply for the purpose of information:The only reference to "new covenant" in the Hebrew Bible is found at Jeremiah 31:31, which uses the Hebrew words "chadash" (adj. "new") "b'riyth" (n. "covenant" or "alliance").Paul, in direct reference to Jeremiah 31:31 used the Greek "diaqkhn kaihn" ("kainos" adj. for "new" and "diatheke" n. for "compact" or "covenant") when speaking directly to a Jewish audience whom he was attempting to convert or convince.Draw your own conclusions on these two connected references.The only other references to "new covenant" are found in the Christian Bible at:Luke 22:20;
1 Corinthians 11:25;
2 Corinthians 3:6;
Hebrews 8:13;
Hebrews 9:15; and
Hebrews 12:24.The only Christian Bible "new covenant" reference attributed directly to Jesus is the Luke 22:20 reference from the "Last Supper." All the rest can be attributed to Paul. Some will argue that Luke worked for Paul, and that the Luke reference may be attributed to Paul as well.The purpose of this post, however, is simply to provide the location of biblical references to a "new covenant" for others to consider.Peace. Ab.

In Message 37, Purpledawn asks: "Give me some examples of what you call works of the law."Maimonides extracted 613 "commandments" from Torah. The following are some examples of "works required by the Law," "good deeds," etc.:Building a sanctuary for God;
Removing the ashes from the Altar;
Rejoicing on the festival days;
Bringing two loaves to Shavout;
Blowing trumpets in the santuary;
Heeding the Prophets;
Destroying all idol worship;
Including a digging tool among war implements;
Giving to charity;
Paying wages on time;
Unloading a tired beast of burden;
Returning property to its owner;
Honoring scholars;
Honoring and fearing one's parents;
Being fruitful and multiplying;
Circumcising one's sons;
Marrying a maiden that one has "violated;"
Removing yeast from one's house on Passover;
and much, much more.According to Luke 10, Jesus basically reduced the 613 commandments of of the covenant to two major commands which the remaining appear to reinforce: Intense and devout love of God, and the treatment of other humans as you would have them treat you. And good ol' Paul even waived the requirement for circumcision to seal the covenant since Jesus purportedly said (at Luke 20) that the covenant was sealed by drinking wine from the cup at Passover.Now you probably have noted that Luke 20 goes on to explain how the new covenant kind of turns the status quo topsy turvy (the greater of you shall become the lesser, and the master shall become the servant); and, therefore, one should refer back to some of the earlier Gospel teachings regarding divesting oneself of material possessions and becoming a pietistic pacifist after entering into the covenant. Seems some folks have overlooked that particular aspect, huh?Peace. Ab.

Willowtree:Let me take this up later. It may be Monday. I have to go to cardiac rehab right now. Meanwhile, I will only say that it appears evident from Luke 22, verses 20 through 30 that immediately after Jesus offers his "new covenant" the apostles begin bucking for rank in the kingdom to come. Jesus explicitly tells them that there will be no ranking as in an earthly kingdom ...This is why I am referring back to some of his earlier teachings regarding divestment of earthly fortunes to attain entry to heavenly rewards. The thing about it being harder for a rich man to enter heaven than for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle, etc.Anyway, don't take offense. I gotta go now, but will discuss this next week.Peace. Ab.

Question from Message 45: "You mean like the preachers that promise if you tithe enough you will receive back more money or possesions or something to that effect?"Yeah, but I told Willow that I would be discussing this with y'all next week. I just got back from cardiac rehab to pick up my wife and go home for the weekend. Let's get back on this subject next week. Enjoy your weekend.Peace. Ab.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Willow:I'm participating with the understanding that Purple's question generally is "what are the terms of the 'New covenant.'"I'm also participating under the assumption that the "New Covenant" is an agreement by which one obtains entrance into the "Kingdom" by following the terms of the covenant. Is that what Christians understand the "New Covenant" to be? Is it a key to entering the "Kingdom?"If it is, then one can understand Purple's question regarding where exactly one finds the terms of the covenant clearly spelled out.From Message 41, you quote my assumption that one can "refer back to some of the earlier Gospel teachings regarding divesting oneself of material possessions and becoming a pietistic pacifist after entering into the covenant."Then in Message 43, you say, "You are clearly insinuating that the activities listed above are necessary to comply with the (New?) covenant."Yes I am. Let me explain regarding divesting oneself of material riches and following the path of Jesus appears to be a "term" of the "Covenant."Quoting Matthew 19:16 "Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, "Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?"17)"Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments."18)"Which ones?" the man inquired. 19)Jesus replied, " 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother,' and 'love your neighbor as yourself.'"These prerequisites for "entering life" are clearly "works of the Law" and here we clearly see that Jesus reemphasises the requirements of the Laws of Moses, just as he did at Matthew 5:17, "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18)I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19)Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20)For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven."Now, back to Matthew 19:20, "All these I have kept," the young man said. "What do I still lack?"21)Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me." 22)When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.Apparently the young man did not want to trade earthly wealth for entrance into a "Heavenly Kingdom." So can this same young man gain entrance without signing on to the "New Covenant" and does the covenant require divesting oneself of earthly riches? It appears so:23)Then Jesus said to his disciples, "I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24)Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."Also apparent is that the "New Covenant" requires something more than "works of the Law" as seen in the following passage:Matthew 18:1) At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, "Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?" 2)He called a little child and had him stand among them. 3)And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4)Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven."Willow, where do we hear this same theme repeated? At the Passover feast in Luke 22?Luke 22:24) Also a dispute arose among them as to which of them was considered to be greatest. 25)Jesus said to them, "The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them; and those who exercise authority over them call themselves Benefactors. 26)But you are not to be like that. Instead, the greatest among you should be like the youngest, and the one who rules like the one who serves. 27)For who is greater, the one who is at the table or the one who serves? Is it not the one who is at the table? But I am among you as one who serves."Pretty much exactly the same theme as in Matthew 18:1, huh? And how is it tied directly to the "New Covenant?" Well, scroll up in Luke 22:Luke 22:14) When the hour came, Jesus and his apostles reclined at the table. 15)And he said to them, "I have eagerly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer. 16)For I tell you, I will not eat it again until it finds fulfillment in the kingdom of God."17)After taking the cup, he gave thanks and said, "Take this and divide it among you. 18)For I tell you I will not drink again of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes." 19)And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, "This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me." 20)In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you."Again, I ask: "Is the 'New Covenant' an agreement by which one obtains admittance to the 'Kingdom of Heaven' by following the specified commandments given in detail in passages attributed to Jesus?"Willow, in Message 43, you say, "the New Covenant is based upon the blood of Christ." That's apparent from Luke 22:20.You also say, "The blood of Christ is appropriated to the individual by faith alone." And to that I can only answer that in the passages quoted above, it appears that "works of the Law" and "actions in accordance with the Teaching" are required in addition to "blind faith" in order to fulfill the terms of the covenant.Willow, you conclude Message 43 with a rather stern, unyielding statement that my "insinuation is a misinterpretation of things demonstrated and taught by Jesus. You wrongly assume that those things are absolutely necessary to the New Covenant."Willow, I have provided examples of what I think Jesus specified as works of the Law and other personal commitments and actions that are prerequisites to enter the Kingdom via the New Covenant. Please show me where, in Jesus's own words, that Jesus negates the specific actions he clearly lays out as required for entry into the Kingdom, and substitutes "faith" as the only requirement.Peace. Ab.

Everything is fine. I had surgery in April and now have to go to rehab 3 days a week 'cause I'm too lazy to do the required 30 minutes sustained exercise on my own, and they're gonna drive me to do it.The flood crest is past down here, but it still rains in buckets about every other day it seems.I think Willow has jumped ship on us cynics. Oh, well.I couldn't find any references in the Hebrew bible to a "Kingdom of Heaven," "Eternal Life," or "Paradise." Seems those concepts come about after 400 - 200 BCE or so. The first references to any such concept in the canonized Bible appears to be in Matthew.Prior references seem to be worded along the lines of "go to be with your fathers," etc., which could be a reference to "gathered together with the bones of your fathers" which is a common reference thought by some to have come from the Canaanite practice of letting the most recently deceased lay on the stone ledge in a tomb until the next deceased family member needed that space, at which time the bones of the preceeding family member were swept up and tossed under the bench with the other "bones of the fathers." Hardly a heavenly kingdom or paradise.I also found only references to guarantees for eternal earthly kingdoms as a reward for honoring the Abrahamic and Mosaic covenants. So it appears that heavenly kingdoms pertain only to the "New Covenant," and I will wait and see if Willowtree agrees or offers additional references.Peace. Ab.This message has been edited by Abshalom, 06-14-2004 02:49 PM

Willow:In Message 56 you say that the terms of the old covenant essentially are "obey and never violate any O.T.law, to the person(s) who does this God will grant you eternal life. Violate one law one time and your prtion is death eternal."I cannot find any reference in the Hebrew bible to "eternal life." Can you provide me with a chapter or verse other than the Christian Bible where "eternal life" is promised?Also, in Message 53, I asked for specifics (in words directly attributed to Jesus) where he says that works of the Law and following specific directions He gave throughout Matthew and Luke are no longer requirements for entry into the Kingdom (as cited in the passages I provided).While I'm not yet ruling out any discussion of Paul's teachings, I would first like you to respond to my questions and points regarding Jesus's teachings specifically on the terms of entry into the Kingdom as cited above (Message 53) in passages from Matthew and Luke.Peace. Ab.