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| Author | Topic: What and Where are the Terms of the New Covenant? | |||||||||||||||||||||||
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wmscott Member (Idle past 6278 days) Posts: 580 From: Sussex, WI USA Joined: |
Dear Purpledawn;
It seems that I have been having a somewhat parallel discussion with Willowtree and I posted on the subject of the New Covenant or the Law of the Christ.EvC Forum: What is a True Christian? see message 135. The scriptures I cited maybe what you were looking for. Wm Scott Anderson
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wmscott Member (Idle past 6278 days) Posts: 580 From: Sussex, WI USA Joined: |
Dear Purpledawn;
quote:No, (Romans 10:4) "For Christ is the end of the Law," the Mosaic law was ended, it was the new law, the law of the Christ that was to be written on their hearts. Wm Scott Anderson
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wmscott Member (Idle past 6278 days) Posts: 580 From: Sussex, WI USA Joined: |
Dear Purpledawn;
I read over the material you provided the link to, and found the whole premise in error. This kind of thing was warned about at, 2 Peter 3:15-16 "Paul according to the wisdom given him also wrote YOU, speaking about these things as he does also in all [his] letters. In them, however, are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unsteady are twisting, as [they do] also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction." The idea that Christians are still under the Torah or law, is in complete conflict with scripture. I see that they state on Romans 10:4 quote:The verse contradicts them so they 'retranslate' the wording to mean something else, they are twisting scripture to fit their viewpoint. The Bible is very clear on Christ fulfilling or ending the law. Next they state; quote:They cite two scriptures for their support which if you read just the cited part, seems to support them, but if you read the surrounding context, you see that the real meaning is just the opposite. (Romans 3:31) "Do we, then, abolish law by means of our faith? Never may that happen! On the contrary, we establish law." But what law is Paul talking about; (Romans 3:27) "Through what law? That of works? No indeed, but through the law of faith" Matthew 5:17 states "Do not think I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I came, not to destroy, but to fulfill;" Christ then goes on to explain that his followers would be held to a higher law of conduct. (Matthew 5:21-22) "whoever commits a murder will be accountable to the court of justice.' However, I say to YOU that everyone who continues wrathful with his brother will be accountable to the court of justice; but whoever addresses his brother with an unspeakable word of contempt will be accountable to the Supreme Court; whereas whoever says, 'You despicable fool!' will be liable to the fiery Gehenna." Christ fulfilled the Mosaic law and ended it and replace it with a new law, one written on hearts made up of righteous principles and standards rather than a detailed list of do's and don't. The issue of whether or not Christians are to keep the Torah was raised in the Paul's day. (Acts 15:5) . "It is necessary to circumcise them and charge them to observe the law of Moses." Which is just what the web page you linked to is saying, the Bible gives as an answer to this question; (Acts 15:28-29) "For the holy spirit and we ourselves have favored adding no further burden to YOU, except these necessary things, to keep abstaining from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication." The burden they didn't give them was that of having to follow the Mosaic law. Look at the list of necessary things, following the Torah isn't necessary. You would be wise to read the book of Galatians, that congregation had a problem with this and some there thought that they needed to keep the Torah, look at the what Paul wrote them. (Galatians 4:9-11) "how is it that YOU are turning back again to the weak and beggarly elementary things and want to slave for them over again? YOU are scrupulously observing days and months and seasons and years. I fear for YOU, that somehow I have toiled to no purpose respecting YOU".(Galatians 4:21) "Tell me, YOU who want to be under law" (Galatians 5:1) "Christ set us free. Therefore stand fast, and do not let yourselves be confined again in a yoke of slavery." (Galatians 5:2-6) "See! I, Paul, am telling YOU that if YOU become circumcised, Christ will be of no benefit to YOU. Moreover, I bear witness again to every man getting circumcised that he is under obligation to perform the whole Law. YOU are parted from Christ, whoever YOU are that try to be declared righteous by means of law; YOU have fallen away from his undeserved kindness. For our part we by spirit are eagerly waiting for the hoped-for righteousness as a result of faith. For as regards Christ Jesus neither circumcision is of any value nor is uncircumcision, but faith operating through love [is]." The situation in the early Christian congregation was that the Jewish Christians were still keeping many of requirements of the law out of a life time of habit, and some of them felt the gentile Christians should too. But there was no requirement from God that they do this, the Jewish Christians were free to keep the Jewish traditions as long as they recognized that it was optional and did not lead to salvation which was only through Jesus. Wm Scott Anderson
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wmscott Member (Idle past 6278 days) Posts: 580 From: Sussex, WI USA Joined: |
Dear Purpledawn;
quote:No, the Abrahamic Covenant was ended in about 36 AD with the conversion of Cornelius the first gentile into the Christian faith. The Abaramic Covenant was for the Jews to become followers of the messiah and become his spirit anointed followers and rule as kings and priests in heaven with Jesus. (Exodus 19:6)" And YOU yourselves will become to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.' These are the words that you are to say to the sons of Israel." (1 Peter 2:9) "But YOU are "a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for special possession, that YOU should declare abroad the excellencies" of the one that called YOU out of darkness into his wonderful light." (Revelation 20:6) "Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and will rule as kings with him for the thousand years." When gentiles became anointed with holy spirit, they became part of Abraham's seed just like the Jews and received the promises made to the Jews. (Galatians 3:28-29) "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female; for YOU are all one [person] in union with Christ Jesus. Moreover, if YOU belong to Christ, YOU are really Abraham's seed, heirs with reference to a promise." Now the law ended with the death of Jesus Christ as the sacrifice for our sins as pictured by the sacrifices made under the law. (Galatians 3:19-25) "Why, then, the Law? It was added to make transgressions manifest, until the seed should arrive to whom the promise had been made; . . . Consequently the Law has become our tutor leading to Christ, that we might be declared righteous due to faith. But now that the faith has arrived, we are no longer under a tutor." (Colossians 2:13-14) "He kindly forgave us all our trespasses and blotted out the handwritten document against us, which consisted of decrees and which was in opposition to us; and He has taken it out of the way by nailing it to the torture stake." The law covenant ended with Christ's death as shown by the above scripture and many others, now the Abrahamic Covenant continued for another three and half years after the law ended. This is shown in the prophecy of seventy weeks in the book of Daniel. The weeks are each made of seven year long 'days' and ran from the order to rebuild Jerusalem until the end of the Abrahamic Covenant. The messiah was to appear after 7+62 or 69 weeks and was to end sacrifices by becoming the last sacrifice, the covenant was to be kept for a another half week after his death or three and half years after Christ died which would bring us up to the time when gentiles were first allowed to be come Christians without first having to be circumcised proselytes. (Daniel 9:24-27) "There are seventy weeks that have been determined upon your people and upon your holy city, in order to terminate the transgression, and to finish off sin, and to make atonement for error, and to bring in righteousness for times indefinite, . . And you should know and have the insight [that] from the going forth of [the] word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah [the] Leader, there will be seven weeks, also sixty-two weeks. . . . "And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah will be cut off, with nothing for himself. . . . "And he must keep [the] covenant in force for the many for one week; and at the half of the week he will cause sacrifice and gift offering to cease." Now since the law covenant ended at the 69th and half week when the Messiah died, it is the Abrahamic Covenant that ends on the end of the 70th week as also shown by Gentiles becoming part of Abraham's seed and receiving promises that the covenant had previously been reserved for the Jews.
quote:It is of course impossible for 2 Peter to be written by someone else since it is an inspired book and God hates liars and would never allow for such a deception to become part of his inspired word. The book of 2 Peter is found in the earliest collections of Bible books and is obviously part of the Bible based on it's content. The difference in style between first and second Peter is due to the fact the secretary Peter used to write the first book is not mentioned as being used in writing the second. quote:The Law of the Christ is the law of love, our actions are to be guided by love for God and our fellow man. Since the whole Mosaic law code Jesus summed up saying by saying these two commands were the greatest commands, much of the law is based on the same principles. So while we are not commanded to keep the rules of the law, the greatest commandments behind it are the Law of the Christ. Beyond treating others as we would want to be treated, specific commands are laid out in the NT such in Acts and in Paul's letters to the congregations. All of the commands should be obvious if one knew God well already, such as not using idols which God repeatedly condemned many times. These things are all part of Loving God and our neighbor. Many of the principles run parallel to commands found in the old law code, that is to be expected because they are both from the same author, but we are not under the law. Since the new covenant was to be written on hearts rather than on stone tablets, it is not spelled out like the old law was, it is a higher law of being righteous rather than just acting righteous. Under the new covenant, just wanting or thinking about doing wickedness was wrong. Sincerely yours; Wm Scott Anderson
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wmscott Member (Idle past 6278 days) Posts: 580 From: Sussex, WI USA Joined: |
Dear Purpledawn;
quote:Covenants are an agreement or contract between two parties, the contract is broken if one of the parties fails to abide by its terms and the Jews rejected the Messiah and so Jehovah rejected them. Part of the Abrahamic covenant was for the Jews to have the promised land, but they lost it because they failed to remain faithful to the covenants they had with God. The Abrahamic covenant could have ended with the death of the Messiah, but God kept it in force for another three and a half years, and even then of the promises, only the exclusive feature for Jews was done away with. The purpose of the Abrahamic covenant was for all the families of the earth to be able to bless themselves by means of the Jews, this was fulfilled in Jesus Christ's kingdom which is the means of applying the blessing to mankind, the covenant also had fulfilled its purpose in regard to the Jews but has a role with true Christians who are spiritual Jews. The fact that from the very beginning Abraham was told that the covenant would result in a blessing to all the families of the earth, pointed out that the exclusiveness of the covenant was only for a period of time. Other parts of the covenant are forever such as the blessings and Jehovah would always be their God. quote:This point is progressively revealed in the Bible, the out working of the sacred secret. But if Abraham was perceptive he may have understood some of what was to be later revealed. God told Abraham, (Genesis 22:18) "And by means of your seed all nations of the earth will certainly bless themselves due to the fact that you have listened to my voice.'" and how would the nations bless themselves by means of Abraham's' 'seed' and what was this 'seed'? Seed can just mean descendants, but a further meaning was included here and Abraham could have picked up on this if he recalled the account that was later recorded at; Genesis 3:14-15 "And Jehovah God proceeded to say to the serpent: . . . I shall put enmity between you and the woman and between your seed and her seed. He will bruise you in the head and you will bruise him in the heel." Abraham would have known of this account since he would have had to passed on the information, and here in this account we find two seeds are mentioned. The seed of the woman who would kill the devil and who was 'bruised in the heel' by the devil, is of course Jesus Christ who will destroy satan and suffered a bruise when he died on earth. The woman is God's heavenly organization or New Jerusalem which is how Jesus is the woman's seed. (Galatians 4:26) But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother. (Revelation 12:1) And a great sign was seen in heaven, a woman arrayed with the sun, and the moon was beneath her feet, and on her head was a crown of twelve stars, Sorry for the detour into some of these deeper points, but with what was said to Abraham and what was said earlier, he may have seen some of what was to come that was later revealed in scripture. The blessing of the nations is repeatedly referred to in the scriptures, such as here in this verse. (Zechariah 8:23) "This is what Jehovah of armies has said, 'It will be in those days that ten men out of all the languages of the nations will take hold, yes, they will actually take hold of the skirt of a man who is a Jew, saying: "We will go with YOU people, for we have heard [that] God is with YOU people."'" Also it was stated that people from the nations becoming Christians was how the Abrahamic blessing would be poured out. (Galatians 3:8) "Now the Scripture, seeing in advance that God would declare people of the nations righteous due to faith, declared the good news beforehand to Abraham, namely: "By means of you all the nations will be blessed." And a few verses later we are told that Christ is the seed of Abraham which fits with what was said in Genesis 3:14-15. (Galatians 3:16-17) "Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. It says, not: "And to seeds," as in the case of many such, but as in the case of one: "And to your seed," who is Christ. Further, I say this: As to the covenant previously validated by God, the Law that has come into being four hundred and thirty years later does not invalidate it, so as to abolish the promise." See, the promises remain. So the purpose of the Abrahamic Covenant was to lead the Jews to Christ who was Abraham's seed for the blessing of the nations. Abraham did not know the full extent of the fulfillment of the promises and how it would all take place, but he apparently did have some understanding since he is said to have seen them from afar. (Hebrews 11:8-16) "By faith Abraham, . . . In faith all these died, although they did not get the [fulfillment of the] promises, but they saw them afar off and welcomed them and publicly declared that they were strangers and temporary residents in the land. . . . But now they are reaching out for a better [place], that is, one belonging to heaven. Hence God is not ashamed of them, to be called upon as their God, for he has made a city ready for them." Under your theory Jews would still need to be circumcised because of the Abrahamic Covenant still being in effect, but did the early Christians believe or teach that? No they did not, notice what this scripture states. (Acts 16:1-3) "Timothy, the son of a believing Jewish woman but of a Greek father, and he was well reported on by the brothers in Lystra and Iconium. Paul expressed the desire for this man to go out with him, and he took him and circumcised him because of the Jews that were in those places, for one and all knew that his father was a Greek." Notice why Paul circumcised Timothy, because the Jews knew he had a Greek father, Paul didn't want to stumble them. No mention is made of the Abrahamic covenant as being the reason Paul circumcised Timothy, because it had already ended. I had stated and you replied.
quote:If you don't listen to Paul how can you be a christian? Paul's words settle the matter since rejection of the writings of Paul would pretty much be a rejection of christianity. The ending of the covenants didn't end the promises since the old covenants were replaced by the new covenant which picked up where the old ones left off. Paul stated that the gentile Christians became part of Abraham's seed, joint heirs with Christ and were heirs to the promised blessings, so while the old covenants ended the promises of the blessings remain. (Galatians 3:28-29) "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female; for YOU are all one [person] in union with Christ Jesus. Moreover, if YOU belong to Christ, YOU are really Abraham's seed, heirs with reference to a promise." So while the Abrahamic Covenant ended for the Jews it's promises continued on for the Christians who became spiritual israel and Abraham's seed and they would see the final out working of the fulfillment of the covenant. So while the Covenant ended for the Jews, it continued on for Christians in a modified form under the new Covenant which is how the covenant lasts forever. Sincerely yours; Wm Scott Anderson
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wmscott Member (Idle past 6278 days) Posts: 580 From: Sussex, WI USA Joined: |
Dear Purpledawn;
quote:Actually Jesus inaugurated the New Covenant, not Paul. Paul merely explained the teaching. (Luke 22:20) This cup means the new covenant by virtue of my blood, which is to be poured out in YOUR behalf." Christ didn't just make the New Covenant on his own initiative, it had been prophesied that there would be a New Covenant in the OT. (Jeremiah 31:31) "Look! There are days coming," is the utterance of Jehovah, "and I will conclude with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah a new covenant;"
quote:Jesus stated that it would happen. (Matthew 23:37-38) "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the killer of the prophets and stoner of those sent forth to her,how often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks together under her wings! But YOU people did not want it. Look! YOUR house is abandoned to YOU."(Matthew 21:42-43) "Jesus said to them: "Did YOU never read in the Scriptures, 'The stone that the builders rejected is the one that has become the chief cornerstone. From Jehovah this has come to be, and it is marvelous in our eyes'? This is why I say to YOU, The kingdom of God will be taken from YOU and be given to a nation producing its fruits." Because the Jews as a group, rejected Jesus as the messiah, they lost their favored standing with God. God took his favor from the Jews and gave it to a new nation, spiritual Israel the Christian congregation. While the Jews as a group lost Jehovah's blessing, many individual Jews became Christians and continued to receive it. Today Jews have no special standing before God, it they to receive his favor, they need to join the new nation of spiritual Israel, True Christianity. You can't reject the words of Paul, what he wrote wouldn't be in the Bible if it wasn't in harmony with the rest of scripture. There was no conflict over doctrine among the writers of the NT, they all speak in agreement. Look at what Peter said about the things written by Paul. (2 Peter 3:15-16) "Paul according to the wisdom given him also wrote YOU, speaking about these things as he does also in all [his] letters. In them, however, are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unsteady are twisting, as [they do] also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. Peter stated that what Paul had written was part of the scriptures, inspired by God scriptures, so Peter was stating Paul taught in perfect harmony. Paul did have a writing style that can be hard to understand and many today still twist it, but he wrote under holy spirit so what he wrote is part of the word of God and carries divine backing. Sincerely yours; Wm Scott Anderson
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wmscott Member (Idle past 6278 days) Posts: 580 From: Sussex, WI USA Joined: |
Dear Purpledawn;
quote:To maintain your argument you are rejecting more and more of the Bible, so far you have rejected all the words of Paul, probably the book of James because he refers to the writings of Paul as scripture and now you reject Luke as well. Luke also wrote the book of Acts so I guess you reject that book as well, that doesn't leave much of the NT that you accept as being inspired by God. (Mark by the way was a close associate and traveling companion of Paul). I accept all of the Bible as being the inspired word of God. The accounts in Matthew and Mark are parallel accounts of the same event described in Luke, while they don't use the word new, they both describe Jesus speaking of a covenant which didn't exist before hence it is a new covenant. (Matthew 26:28) "this means my 'blood of the covenant,' which is to be poured out in behalf of many for forgiveness of sins."(Mark 14:24) "This means my 'blood of the covenant,' which is to be poured out in behalf of many." Do you wish to reject Matthew and Mark now too? So your objection to the word new is frivolous. Jesus mediated a new covenant, the one spoken of at; (Jeremiah 31:31) " I will conclude with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah a new covenant;" Moses warned the Israelites right from the very beginning what would happen if they failed to keep the covenant. (Deuteronomy 29:24-28) "'Why did Jehovah do like this to this land? Why the heat of this great anger?' Then they will have to say, 'It was because they abandoned the covenant of Jehovah the God of their forefathers, which he concluded with them when he brought them out of the land of Egypt. And they proceeded to go and serve other gods and to bow down to them, gods that they had not known and he had not apportioned to them. Then Jehovah's anger blazed against that land by bringing upon it the whole malediction written in this book. Hence Jehovah uprooted them from off their soil in anger and rage and great indignation and threw them into another land as at this day.' Now that was just a warning, here is what he told Ezekiel. (Ezekiel 16:59-60) "For this is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said, 'I also must do with you just as you have done, because you despised the oath in breaking [my] covenant. And I, I myself, must remember my covenant with you in the days of your youth, and I must establish for you an indefinitely lasting covenant." The Israelites were to be punished by being deported off land because they had broken the covenant. The law covenant continued in effect for sometime after this, but notice Jehovah's intention to establish or create a new lasting covenant. Both of the prophets Ezekiel and Jeremiah referred to the coming new covenant that would be a replacement for the old covenant. (Jeremiah 31:31)
quote:Jehovah's covenants are always dependant on obedience, the law covenant was and so is the New Covenant. We can not reject Jesus who mediated the New Covenant with his own blood and still expect to partake of the covenant's blessings. Remember the warning example of those who rejected Moses the mediator of the old covenant. quote:We are still waiting for the day when this will be true, it hasn't come to pass yet so we still need people like Paul. The New Covenant is going to bring this about through the Messianic Kingdom when Christ takes control of the earth and we see the fulfillment of the meek inheriting the earth. quote:Jehovah is saying that he will always live up to his side of the covenant, but that was never the problem now was it. (Matthew 21:43) " This is why I say to YOU, The kingdom of God will be taken from YOU and be given to a nation producing its fruits." As a people the Jews failed to live up to the covenant as demonstrated by their rejection of the Messiah, so as a group they were rejected. But individuals who accepted Jesus were accepted into the New Covenant, and they received the blessings of Jehovah as part of 'spiritual Israel' that replaced fleshly Israel. quote:Peter used the word Scripture, and by that he meant part of the inspired word of God. One of the gifts of the spirit that they had then was the ability to discern directly by miraculous use of the holy spirit whether or not something was inspired or not. (1 Corinthians 12:10) "discernment of inspired utterances" So it was known immediately what was inspired and what was not and Peter stated that the letters of Paul were inspired. So there is not doubt about the inspired ness of what Paul wrote, we have Peter telling us so under divine inspiration in the Bible. Sincerely yours; Wm Scott Anderson
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wmscott Member (Idle past 6278 days) Posts: 580 From: Sussex, WI USA Joined: |
Dear Purpledawn;
quote:Jesus was referring to the Mosaic Law which he ended by fulfilling it, I was referring to the Abrahamic covenant of which part of it carries on while part of it ended. ( transferred from Israel to spiritual Israel ) So you have your covenants confused. quote:Paul quotes Jeremiah 31:31 at Hebrews 10:16 in his discussion of the New Covenant which Jesus Christ mediated with his blood. (Hebrews 10:16) "'This is the covenant that I shall covenant toward them after those days,' says Jehovah. 'I will put my laws in their hearts, and in their minds I shall write them,'" (Hebrews 9:18-19) "Consequently neither was the former [covenant] inaugurated without blood. For when every commandment according to the Law had been spoken by Moses to all the people, he took the blood of the young bulls and of the goats with water and scarlet wool and hyssop and sprinkled the book itself and all the people," Notice that Paul referred to the Law covenant as former, it had ended, and that the new covenant was inaugurated or begun with the blood of Christ's sacrifice so it was already in operation. Read the book of Hebrews, Paul wrote it for the Jewish Christians explaining how Christianity with Jesus as high priest who mediated the new covenant with his own blood, was the fulfillment and the reality while the old Jewish law was merely the prophetic illustrations of the Christian realities. (Hebrews 8:7-13) "For if that first covenant had been faultless, no place would have been sought for a second; for he does find fault with the people when he says: "'Look! There are days coming,' says Jehovah, 'and I will conclude with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah a new covenant; not according to the covenant that I made with their forefathers in [the] day of my taking hold of their hand to bring them forth out of the land of Egypt, because they did not continue in my covenant, so that I stopped caring for them,' says Jehovah." "'For this is the covenant that I shall covenant with the house of Israel after those days,' says Jehovah. 'I will put my laws in their mind, and in their hearts I shall write them. And I will become their God, and they themselves will become my people. "'And they will by no means teach each one his fellow citizen and each one his brother, saying: "Know Jehovah!" For they will all know me, from [the] least one to [the] greatest one of them. For I shall be merciful to their unrighteous deeds, and I shall by no means call their sins to mind anymore.'" In his saying "a new [covenant]" he has made the former one obsolete. Now that which is made obsolete and growing old is near to vanishing away."
quote:Actually they were told even before they got the law covenant. (Genesis 49:10) "Judah, neither the commander's staff from between his feet, until Shiloh comes; and to him the obedience of the peoples will belong." Moses even told the Israelites that Jehovah would punish them if they failed to listen to the coming prophet that would be like Moses, which is referring to Shiloh the Messiah. (Deuteronomy 18:17-19) "At that Jehovah said to me, . . . A prophet I shall raise up for them from the midst of their brothers, like you; and I shall indeed put my words in his mouth, and he will certainly speak to them all that I shall command him. And it must occur that the man who will not listen to my words that he will speak in my name, I shall myself require an account from him." There are a number of Messianic prophecies found throughout the OT that pointed to Jesus as the Messiah and the role he would fulfill, this is pointed out in the book of Acts. (Acts 3:19-26) "Repent, therefore, and turn around so as to get YOUR sins blotted out, that seasons of refreshing may come from the person of Jehovah and that he may send forth the Christ appointed for YOU, Jesus, whom heaven, indeed, must hold within itself until the times of restoration of all things of which God spoke through the mouth of his holy prophets of old time. In fact, Moses said, 'Jehovah God will raise up for YOU from among YOUR brothers a prophet like me. YOU must listen to him according to all the things he speaks to YOU. Indeed, any soul that does not listen to that Prophet will be completely destroyed from among the people.' And all the prophets, in fact, from Samuel on and those in succession, just as many as have spoken, have also plainly declared these days. YOU are the sons of the prophets and of the covenant which God covenanted with YOUR forefathers, saying to Abraham, 'And in your seed all the families of the earth will be blessed.' To YOU first God, after raising up his Servant, sent him forth to bless YOU by turning each one away from YOUR wicked deeds." The Abrahamic covenant and the Law covenant both pointed to the Messiah, he was the culmination of the law, fulfilling it and the means by which the promises of the Abrahamic Covenant would be carried out. Jesus Christ the Messiah, is the key theme that ties together the out working of God's will in the Bible. Everything in the OT and the NT revolves around the role Christ has in doing God's will and the sanctification of God's name.
quote:The Pharisees were not a nation, the Jews were, the illustrations which preceded Jesus' statement applied to the Pharisees while his words in verse 43 applied to the whole nation. Paul addressed the issue of did God reject Israel, and his answer was no, he hadn't. But according to Paul, those Jews like himself that God still favored, it was only because they had accepted Christ. (Romans 11:1-2) "I ask, then, God did not reject his people, did he? Never may that happen! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God did not reject his people, whom he first recognized." (Romans 11:5-7) "at the present season also a remnant has turned up according to a choosing due to undeserved kindness. Now if it is by undeserved kindness, it is no longer due to works; otherwise, the undeserved kindness no longer proves to be undeserved kindness. What, then? The very thing Israel is earnestly seeking he did not obtain, but the ones chosen obtained it." (Romans 11:17-24) "However, if some of the branches were broken off but you, although being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became a sharer of the olive's root of fatness, do not be exulting over the branches. If, though, you are exulting over them, it is not you that bear the root, but the root [bears] you. You will say, then: "Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in." All right! For [their] lack of faith they were broken off, but you are standing by faith. Quit having lofty ideas, but be in fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. See, therefore, God's kindness and severity. Toward those who fell there is severity, but toward you there is God's kindness, provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise, you also will be lopped off. They also, if they do not remain in their lack of faith, will be grafted in; for God is able to graft them in again. For if you were cut out of the olive tree that is wild by nature and were grafted contrary to nature into the garden olive tree, how much rather will these who are natural be grafted into their own olive tree!" In general the nation of Israel was broken off, if they as individuals had faith in Jesus as the messiah, they would be grafted back in and once again have Jehovah's favor. The Jesus Christ stipulated a high level of conduct that Christians are to follow, any who refused to live up to the law of the Christ were to be put out of the congregation. (Matthew 18:15-17) "Moreover, if your brother commits a sin, go lay bare his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take along with you one or two more, in order that at the mouth of two or three witnesses every matter may be established. If he does not listen to them, speak to the congregation. If he does not listen even to the congregation, let him be to you just as a man of the nations and as a tax collector." Now most so called christian religions do not follow this command of Jesus to remove willful sinners from the congregation, and as a result many so called Christians give christianity a bad name. Paul also restated the same command a number of times in his letters to the congregations. (2 Thessalonians 3:6) "Now we are giving YOU orders, brothers, in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, to withdraw from every brother walking disorderly and not according to the tradition YOU received from us." It was prophesied that due to many falling away and following false teachers, Christianity would be spoken of abusively because of the bad conduct that would take place among supposed followers of Christ and the failure to keep the congregation clean of those practicing such things. (2 Peter 2:1-2) "However, there also came to be false prophets among the people, as there will also be false teachers among YOU. These very ones will quietly bring in destructive sects and will disown even the owner that bought them, bringing speedy destruction upon themselves. Furthermore, many will follow their acts of loose conduct, and on account of these the way of the truth will be spoken of abusively." Sincerely Yours; Wm Scott Anderson
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wmscott Member (Idle past 6278 days) Posts: 580 From: Sussex, WI USA Joined: |
Dear Purpledawn;
quote:198 years. Notification of the coming Shiloh or messiah and the requirement of obedience predates the Mosaic law code as does the Abrahamic covenant, just as the Abrahamic covenant was not replaced by the law code, neither was the prophecy of the coming Shiloh. The Jews knew this and even named a city Shiloh where the temple tent was stationed for many years before the temple was built in Jerusalem. On Genesis 49:10, a Commentary edited by F. C. Cook (p. 233) notes: "All Jewish antiquity referred the prophecy to Messiah." Looking for a specific command in the law code requiring the Israelites to obey the Messiah is just looking for a loop hole that doesn't reasonably exist. Was Jehovah pleased when the Jews refused to listen to his prophets? The law covenant was provisional on the Israelites obeying Jehovah and those he sent. (Exodus 19:5-6) "now if YOU will strictly obey my voice and will indeed keep my covenant, then YOU will certainly become my special property out of all [other] peoples," How could the Jews be listening to Jehovah if they refused to listen to his son the Word of God? Actually in the Law code the Jews were specifically told to obey the one who was the to be the coming Messiah.(Exodus 23:20-21) "Here I am sending an angel ahead of you to keep you on the road and to bring you into the place that I have prepared. Watch yourself because of him and obey his voice. Do not behave rebelliously against him, for he will not pardon YOUR transgression; because my name is within him." Notice the term, "my name is within him" which refers to Jesus Christ. Paul also stated that Jesus Christ was the angel that followed the Israelites. (1 Corinthians 10:4) "For they used to drink from the spiritual rock-mass that followed them, and that rock-mass meant the Christ." When Moses split the rock mass with his staff and water came out, it pictured the flow of spiritual water from Jehovah and pictured the spirit flow of water that was to be provided through Christ who was also the angel who followed the Israelites. So even if you want to split hairs, Yes the Jews were told in the Law code to obey Jesus Christ.
quote:Everything Jesus taught was from his father, none of it was from other sources, so everything he taught was God's word. (John 8:28) "I do nothing of my own initiative; but just as the Father taught me I speak these things." Jesus gave two key commands to his followers, one was;(Matthew 28:18-20) "And Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: "All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth. Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded YOU." So followers of Jesus Christ would have to be active preachers to all the nations, which would involve a major preaching campaign on a global scale. The other key command was;(John 13:34) " I am giving YOU a new commandment, that YOU love one another; just as I have loved YOU, that YOU also love one another." The command to love one another is much more extensive than it sounds, consider the following.(Matthew 22:37-40) "'You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind.' This is the greatest and first commandment. The second, like it, is this, 'You must love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments the whole Law hangs, and the Prophets." If the whole of the Mosaic law code could be summed up by those two commands, it shows how much is entailed in Jesus' commands to his followers. The thrust of the law code was based on love, which would be the heart of the law, those principles would be what principles God was expecting from Christians. Jesus didn't give a long list of do's and don't's, he didn't have to, the new law was to be written on hearts, his followers were expected to do the right thing. That is the law of the Christ, the New Covenant. Christ, while he was on earth lived an example for us to follow and give us much guidance in his teachings and we have the history of the OT of what God approved of and what he didn't, to help us know what is right and what is wrong. We also have further instructions in the other NT books, Paul stated.(1 Corinthians 14:37) "let him acknowledge the things I am writing to YOU, because they are the Lord's commandment." The things written to the congregations were written under divine inspiration and are part of the Lord's commandments. In the book of Acts and in the letters to the congregations we have further commands most of which were just restating what should have already been obvious as being the right thing to do, based on God's earlier instructions and dealings with mankind, it was just a spelling out of what had already been commanded by Christ in his law of love. Sincerely Yours; Wm Scott Anderson
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wmscott Member (Idle past 6278 days) Posts: 580 From: Sussex, WI USA Joined: |
Dear Purpledawn;
quote:The 198 years run from Jacob's death in Egypt in 1711 B.C. until the Israelites received the law code in 1513 B.C.. The Israelites were only in Egypt for 215 years, and had dwelt in Canaan 215 years, Exodus 12:40 combines these two periods into one. Which is why (Galatians 3:16-17) states "Now the promises were spoken to Abraham . . . the Law that has come into being four hundred and thirty years later does not invalidate it," that it was 430 years from the giving of the Abrahamic covenant until the giving of the Mosaic law code. quote:Of course, that is because they have rejected the messiah so they reinterpret any verse pointing to Jesus as meaning something else at all costs. As I posted in my last post; [On Genesis 49:10, a Commentary edited by F. C. Cook (p. 233) notes: "All Jewish antiquity referred the prophecy to Messiah."] Notice the word 'antiquity', modern Jewish writers have changed the Jewish view of this verse and possibly the text as well as they have in other verses so that it conforms with the Jewish rejection of the messiah. quote:Paul said otherwise, as I posted last time: quote:Here Paul indicates that the angel in Exodus 23:20 was Jesus Christ which fits with his role as the messiah. Plus all this is a waste of time anyway since the Mosaic covenant was provisional on the Israelites obeying Jehovah, they were not listening to him or obeying when they rejected Jesus the Word of God who came in his Father's name and soke his words to them. In rejecting the Messiah, they rejected God, since Jesus was doing his father's bidding. quote:You misunderstand Jeremiah 31:34, it is talking about what the New covenant will bring about, not what the conditions will be when it starts. Paul addresses the issues you raise and states that the New Covenant is in operation and that the old Mosaic covenant has ended. (Hebrews 8:9-9:1) "because they did not continue in my covenant, so that I stopped caring for them,' says Jehovah." "'For this is the covenant that I shall covenant with the house of Israel after those days,' says Jehovah. 'I will put my laws in their mind, and in their hearts I shall write them. And I will become their God, and they themselves will become my people. "'And they will by no means teach each one his fellow citizen and each one his brother, saying: "Know Jehovah!" For they will all know me, from [the] least one to [the] greatest one of them. For I shall be merciful to their unrighteous deeds, and I shall by no means call their sins to mind anymore.'" In his saying "a new [covenant]" he has made the former one obsolete. Now that which is made obsolete and growing old is near to vanishing away. For its part, then, the former [covenant] used to have ordinances" (Hebrews 9:11-28) "However, when Christ came as a high priest of the good things that have come to pass, through the greater and more perfect tent not made with hands, that is, not of this creation, he entered, no, not with the blood of goats and of young bulls, but with his own blood, once for all time into the holy place and obtained an everlasting deliverance [for us]. For if the blood of goats and of bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who have been defiled sanctifies to the extent of cleanness of the flesh, how much more will the blood of the Christ, who through an everlasting spirit offered himself without blemish to God, cleanse our consciences from dead works that we may render sacred service to [the] living God? So that is why he is a mediator of a new covenant, in order that, because a death has occurred for [their] release by ransom from the transgressions under the former covenant, the ones who have been called might receive the promise of the everlasting inheritance. For where there is a covenant, the death of the [human] covenanter needs to be furnished. For a covenant is valid over dead [victims], since it is not in force at any time while the [human] covenanter is living. Consequently neither was the former [covenant] inaugurated without blood. For when every commandment according to the Law had been spoken by Moses to all the people, he took the blood of the young bulls and of the goats with water and scarlet wool and hyssop and sprinkled the book itself and all the people, saying: "This is the blood of the covenant that God has laid as a charge upon YOU." And he sprinkled the tent and all the vessels of the public service likewise with the blood. Yes, nearly all things are cleansed with blood according to the Law, and unless blood is poured out no forgiveness takes place. Therefore it was necessary that the typical representations of the things in the heavens should be cleansed by these means, but the heavenly things themselves with sacrifices that are better than such sacrifices. For Christ entered, not into a holy place made with hands, which is a copy of the reality, but into heaven itself, now to appear before the person of God for us. Neither is it in order that he should offer himself often, as indeed the high priest enters into the holy place from year to year with blood not his own. Otherwise, he would have to suffer often from the founding of the world. But now he has manifested himself once for all time at the conclusion of the systems of things to put sin away through the sacrifice of himself. And as it is reserved for men to die once for all time, but after this a judgment, so also the Christ was offered once for all time to bear the sins of many; and the second time that he appears it will be apart from sin and to those earnestly looking for him for [their] salvation." Christ in his role as high priest presented the value of his sacrifice before Jehovah in heaven, by doing this he inaugurated the New Covenant by which we are forgiven our sins. If the New Covenant has yet to start, our sins would be unforgiven, and since it is only through the New Covenant that anyone can go to heaven, that door would still be closed. Christianity is based on the operation of the New Covenant, if it hasn't started yet, Christianity would be a lie a Jewish apostasy. You can not reject the operation of the New Covenant and claim to be a Christian since Christianity is dependant on Christ having started the New covenant shortly after his death.
quote:No, you still don't quite understand. The principle of showing love, the guiding thought behind the Mosaic law is carried on in the command for Christians to love one another, but the regulations of the law ended, all of them, not just circumcision. Paul warned that if we tried to pursue righteous by following part of the law, we would have fallen away from Christ. (Galatians 5:4) "YOU are parted from Christ, whoever YOU are that try to be declared righteous by means of law; YOU have fallen away from his undeserved kindness." Notice here Paul states no one was declared righteous by following the old law code, but Christians were being declared righteous under the New Covenant based on the saving power of christ's blood, which was only possible if the New Covenant was already in operation, otherwise no forgiveness of sin was possible. (Romans 3:20-25) "Therefore by works of law no flesh will be declared righteous before him, for by law is the accurate knowledge of sin. But now apart from law God's righteousness has been made manifest, as it is borne witness to by the Law and the Prophets; yes, God's righteousness through the faith in Jesus Christ, for all those having faith. For there is no distinction. For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and it is as a free gift that they are being declared righteous by his undeserved kindness through the release by the ransom [paid] by Christ Jesus." (Galatians 4:21-5:1) "Tell me, YOU who want to be under law, . . . Christ set us free."
quote:The whole law of the Christ is contained in the command to show love, but Paul and the other NT writers explained and listed quite a number of specific applications of the command. (Galatians 5:19-6:10) ""Now the works of the flesh are manifest, and they are fornication, uncleanness, loose conduct, idolatry, practice of spiritism, enmities, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, contentions, divisions, sects, envies, drunken bouts, revelries, and things like these. As to these things I am forewarning YOU, the same way as I did forewarn YOU, that those who practice such things will not inherit God's kingdom. On the other hand, the fruitage of the spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith, mildness, self-control. Against such things there is no law. Moreover, those who belong to Christ Jesus impaled the flesh together with its passions and desires. If we are living by spirit, let us go on walking orderly also by spirit. Let us not become egotistical, stirring up competition with one another, envying one another. Brothers, even though a man takes some false step before he is aware of it, YOU who have spiritual qualifications try to readjust such a man in a spirit of mildness, as you each keep an eye on yourself, for fear you also may be tempted. Go on carrying the burdens of one another, and thus fulfill the law of the Christ. For if anyone thinks he is something when he is nothing, he is deceiving his own mind. But let each one prove what his own work is, and then he will have cause for exultation in regard to himself alone, and not in comparison with the other person. For each one will carry his own load. Moreover, let anyone who is being orally taught the word share in all good things with the one who gives such oral teaching. Do not be misled: God is not one to be mocked. For whatever a man is sowing, this he will also reap; because he who is sowing with a view to his flesh will reap corruption from his flesh, but he who is sowing with a view to the spirit will reap everlasting life from the spirit. So let us not give up in doing what is fine, for in due season we shall reap if we do not tire out. Really, then, as long as we have time favorable for it, let us work what is good toward all, but especially toward those related to [us] in the faith." (Romans 1:24-32) "Therefore God, in keeping with the desires of their hearts, gave them up to uncleanness, that their bodies might be dishonored among them, even those who exchanged the truth of God for the lie and venerated and rendered sacred service to the creation rather than the One who created, who is blessed forever. Amen. That is why God gave them up to disgraceful sexual appetites, for both their females changed the natural use of themselves into one contrary to nature; and likewise even the males left the natural use of the female and became violently inflamed in their lust toward one another, males with males, working what is obscene and receiving in themselves the full recompense, which was due for their error. And just as they did not approve of holding God in accurate knowledge, God gave them up to a disapproved mental state, to do the things not fitting, filled as they were with all unrighteousness, wickedness, covetousness, badness, being full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malicious disposition, being whisperers, backbiters, haters of God, insolent, haughty, self-assuming, inventors of injurious things, disobedient to parents, without understanding, false to agreements, having no natural affection, merciless. Although these know full well the righteous decree of God, that those practicing such things are deserving of death, they not only keep on doing them but also consent with those practicing them." (1 Corinthians 5:9-13) "In my letter I wrote YOU to quit mixing in company with fornicators, not [meaning] entirely with the fornicators of this world or the greedy persons and extortioners or idolaters. Otherwise, YOU would actually have to get out of the world. But now I am writing YOU to quit mixing in company with anyone called a brother that is a fornicator or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man. For what do I have to do with judging those outside? Do YOU not judge those inside, while God judges those outside? "Remove the wicked [man] from among yourselves." (Romans 12:9-14:6) "Let [YOUR] love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is wicked, cling to what is good. In brotherly love have tender affection for one another. In showing honor to one another take the lead. Do not loiter at YOUR business. Be aglow with the spirit. Slave for Jehovah. Rejoice in the hope. Endure under tribulation. Persevere in prayer. Share with the holy ones according to their needs. Follow the course of hospitality. Keep on blessing those who persecute; be blessing and do not be cursing. Rejoice with people who rejoice; weep with people who weep. Be minded the same way toward others as to yourselves; do not be minding lofty things, but be led along with the lowly things. Do not become discreet in YOUR own eyes. Return evil for evil to no one. Provide fine things in the sight of all men. If possible, as far as it depends upon YOU, be peaceable with all men. Do not avenge yourselves, beloved, but yield place to the wrath; for it is written: "Vengeance is mine; I will repay, says Jehovah." But, "if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by doing this you will heap fiery coals upon his head." Do not let yourself be conquered by the evil, but keep conquering the evil with the good. Let every soul be in subjection to the superior authorities, for there is no authority except by God; the existing authorities stand placed in their relative positions by God. Therefore he who opposes the authority has taken a stand against the arrangement of God; those who have taken a stand against it will receive judgment to themselves. For those ruling are an object of fear, not to the good deed, but to the bad. Do you, then, want to have no fear of the authority? Keep doing good, and you will have praise from it; for it is God's minister to you for your good. But if you are doing what is bad, be in fear: for it is not without purpose that it bears the sword; for it is God's minister, an avenger to express wrath upon the one practicing what is bad. There is therefore compelling reason for YOU people to be in subjection, not only on account of that wrath but also on account of [YOUR] conscience. For that is why YOU are also paying taxes; for they are God's public servants constantly serving this very purpose. Render to all their dues, to him who [calls for] the tax, the tax; to him who [calls for] the tribute, the tribute; to him who [calls for] fear, such fear; to him who [calls for] honor, such honor. Do not YOU people be owing anybody a single thing, except to love one another; for he that loves his fellowman has fulfilled [the] law. For the [law code], "You must not commit adultery, You must not murder, You must not steal, You must not covet," and whatever other commandment there is, is summed up in this word, namely, "You must love your neighbor as yourself." Love does not work evil to one's neighbor; therefore love is the law's fulfillment. [Do] this, too, because YOU people know the season, that it is already the hour for YOU to awake from sleep, for now our salvation is nearer than at the time when we became believers. The night is well along; the day has drawn near. Let us therefore put off the works belonging to darkness and let us put on the weapons of the light. As in the daytime let us walk decently, not in revelries and drunken bouts, not in illicit intercourse and loose conduct, not in strife and jealousy. But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not be planning ahead for the desires of the flesh. Welcome the [man] having weaknesses in [his] faith, but not to make decisions on inward questionings. One [man] has faith to eat everything, but the [man] who is weak eats vegetables. Let the one eating not look down on the one not eating, and let the one not eating not judge the one eating, for God has welcomed that one. Who are you to judge the house servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for Jehovah can make him stand. One [man] judges one day as above another; another [man] judges one day as all others; let each [man] be fully convinced in his own mind. He who observes the day observes it to Jehovah. Also, he who eats, eats to Jehovah, for he gives thanks to God; and he who does not eat does not eat to Jehovah, and yet gives thanks to God." The above quoted verses are just a small part of the many commands given to the Christian congregation, all which are summed up in Jesus' command to love your neighbor. Read the NT, I can't post it all here. Contained in the letters to the congregations are many guidelines and commands all based on the law of the Christ. Sincerely Yours; Wm Scott Anderson
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wmscott Member (Idle past 6278 days) Posts: 580 From: Sussex, WI USA Joined: |
Dear Purpledawn;
Paul had the best training available in his day, being a student of Gamaliel, and may of had access to oral and written histories we do not have today, but above all he wrote under divine inspiration. Through power of the holy spirit the NT writers interpreted many of the OT prophecies and showed how they were fulfilled in Jesus Christ. But if you do your home work, you will find that research supports Paul's interpretation of Exodus 12:40. Checking my reference books I found the following.
quote:The time periods given in Genesis in the Genealogy record and when certain events occurred also show that the Israelites were in Egypt for 215 years. Notice how the Bible that I quoted from, translated the verse using commas to separate the dwelling in Egypt from the time period of 430 years. (Exodus 12:40) "And the dwelling of the sons of Israel, who had dwelt in Egypt, was four hundred and thirty years." Paul maybe a bit hard to understand at times, but not that hard, all you have to do is read it carefully in the context that it was written, don't just take a verse here or there and use it out of context. James warning about twisting the words of Paul didn't mean Paul was too hard to understand, he was warning that there were those who were doing so then and there are those who do so today. But such twisting is readily apparent when you look at the over all context of the Bible, interpretations that appear to create scriptural contradictions are obviously wrong and easy to spot. God gave us the Bible to read and learn from, some things are hidden, (Matthew 11:25) "Jesus said in response: "I publicly praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and intellectual ones and have revealed them to babes." but they are known now and can be yours if you are willing to search for them. (1 Corinthians 2:7-10) "we speak God's wisdom in a sacred secret, the hidden wisdom, which God foreordained before the systems of things for our glory. . . . For it is to us God has revealed them through his spirit, for the spirit searches into all things, even the deep things of God." Sincerely Yours; Wm Scott Anderson
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wmscott Member (Idle past 6278 days) Posts: 580 From: Sussex, WI USA Joined: |
Dear Purpledawn;
quote:You forget the words of Paul on this matter. (2 Timothy 3:16) "All Scripture is inspired of God." Jesus said that his followers would receive the holy spirit and it would teach them and bring back to their minds the things he had taught them. (John 14:26) "But the helper, the holy spirit, which the Father will send in my name, that one will teach YOU all things and bring back to YOUR minds all the things I told YOU." So Jesus stated that his followers would be inspired by holy spirit and the NT writers repeatedly stated that what they wrote was not theirs but what God had told them to write. (1 Corinthians 14:37) "If anyone thinks he is a prophet or gifted with the spirit, let him acknowledge the things I am writing to YOU, because they are the Lord's commandment."(Galatians 1:11-12) "For I put YOU on notice, brothers, that the good news which was declared by me as good news is not something human; for neither did I receive it from man, nor was I taught [it], except through revelation by Jesus Christ." (1 Thessalonians 2:13) "Indeed, that is why we also thank God incessantly, because when YOU received God's word, which YOU heard from us, YOU accepted it, not as the word of men, but, just as it truthfully is, as the word of God, which is also at work in YOU believers." quote:Throughout the OT there a running theme of the seed, the messiah whom Jehovah would give an everlasting kingdom that would rule over all the earth. The first reference to this 'seed' is in (Genesis 3:14-15) "And Jehovah God proceeded to say to the serpent: " . . . And I shall put enmity between you and the woman and between your seed and her seed. He will bruise you in the head and you will bruise him in the heel." So the 'seed' was to someday destroy the devil. This 'seed' is next mentioned in a prophecy given to Abraham. (Genesis 22:17-18) "your seed will take possession of the gate of his enemies. And by means of your seed all nations of the earth will certainly bless themselves" The next reference is the reference to 'Shiloh' at. (Genesis 49:10) "The scepter will not turn aside from Judah, neither the commander's staff from between his feet, until Shiloh comes; and to him the obedience of the peoples will belong." The term shiloh means "He to Whom It Belongs" so the prophecy was that future kings in Israel would come from the tribe of Judah until shiloh or the messiah who would receive the kingship and keep it. King David, was told that his 'seed' would have his house firmly established and would rule to time indefinite or forever. Part of this prophecy refers to Solomon, and part refers to this coming 'seed'. (1 Chronicles 17:11-14) "'"And it must occur that when your days have come to the full [for you] to go [to be] with your forefathers, I shall certainly raise up your seed after you that will come to be one of your sons, and I shall indeed firmly establish his kingship. He is the one that will build me a house, and I shall certainly establish his throne firmly to time indefinite. I myself shall become his father, and he himself will become my son; and my loving-kindness I shall not remove from him the way I removed it from the one that happened to be prior to you. And I will cause him to stand in my house and in my kingship to time indefinite, and his throne will itself become one lasting to time indefinite."'" Notice how in Psalms here it again refers to this Seed who would have a never ending kingdom. (Psalm 89:3-4) "I have concluded a covenant toward my chosen one; I have sworn to David my servant, 'Even to time indefinite I shall firmly establish your seed, And I will build your throne to generation after generation.'" (Psalm 89:26-29) He himself calls out to me, 'You are my Father, My God and the Rock of my salvation.' Also, I myself shall place him as firstborn, The most high of the kings of the earth. To time indefinite I shall preserve my loving-kindness toward him, And my covenant will be faithful to him. And I shall certainly set up his seed forever And his throne as the days of heaven." If the kings had remained faithful, there could have been a solid line of Judaean kings reaching down to the Messiah, but due to their unfaithfulness, that was not the case. (Ezekiel 21:25-27) "And as for you, O deadly wounded, wicked chieftain of Israel, whose day has come in the time of the error of [the] end, this is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said, 'Remove the turban, and lift off the crown. This will not be the same. Put on high even what is low, and bring low even the high one. A ruin, a ruin, a ruin I shall make it. As for this also, it will certainly become no [one's] until he comes who has the legal right, and I must give [it] to him.' Ezekiel prophesied that the line of kings would be ended and would stay ended until the Shiloh, the who had the legal right, came to claim the kingship. Isaiah prophesied about this coming King who would rule forever and would be from the line of David. (Isaiah 9:6) "For there has been a child born to us, there has been a son given to us; and the princely rule will come to be upon his shoulder. And his name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace." (Isaiah 11:10) "And it must occur in that day that there will be the root of Jesse that will be standing up as a signal for the peoples. To him even the nations will turn inquiringly, and his resting-place must become glorious." So throughout the Hebrew Scriptures we have all these prophecies of this seed of David, who would be come king forever and would rule over all the earth and bring about the meek inheriting the earth forever in peace without any problems. The NT writers applied these prophecies to Jesus Christ who fulfilled hundreds of prophecies that told many details of his ministry in advance. (Luke 1:32) "This one will be great and will be called Son of the Most High; and Jehovah God will give him the throne of David his father," Paul was aware of this long line of messiah prophecies of which Genesis 49:10 is only one, the prophecies all point towards Jesus Christ as being the messiah, Shiloh the one who would become the king of the kingdom forever.
quote:That goofy web site you referred to did so extensively and you have been taking their side. quote:Read the parallel account in Luke. (Luke 10:21)"I publicly praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have carefully hidden these things from wise and intellectual ones, and have revealed them to babes. Yes, O Father, because to do thus came to be the way approved by you." Jesus wasn't talking about his miracles, he was talking about the Sacred Secret and things in general in the Bible that have been sealed up from the unbelievers. Paul referred to this; Corinthians 2:7-10) "we speak God's wisdom in a sacred secret, the hidden wisdom, which God foreordained before the systems of things for our glory. . . . For it is to us God has revealed them through his spirit, for the spirit searches into all things, even the deep things of God." Jehovah has seen fit at times to keep secret certain things in the Bible until a later time when through his spirit his worshipers would be granted to understand and mean known that had been made secret. (Daniel 12:9-10) "Go, Daniel, because the words are made secret and sealed up until the time of [the] end. Many will cleanse themselves and whiten themselves and will be refined. And the wicked ones will certainly act wickedly, and no wicked ones at all will understand; but the ones having insight will understand." Jesus also referred to secrets in the scriptures. (Mark 4:11-12) "To YOU the sacred secret of the kingdom of God has been given, but to those outside all things occur in illustrations, in order that, though looking, they may look and yet not see, and, though hearing, they may hear and yet not get the sense of it, nor ever turn back and forgiveness be given them." Paul reveals that the reason he knew so much about the Sacred Secret was because of a revelation from Jesus Christ. (Ephesians 3:1-7) "On account of this I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus in behalf of YOU, the people of the nations if, really, YOU have heard about the stewardship of the undeserved kindness of God that was given me with YOU in view, that by way of a revelation the sacred secret was made known to me, just as I wrote previously in brief. In the face of this YOU, when YOU read this, can realize the comprehension I have in the sacred secret of the Christ. In other generations this [secret] was not made known to the sons of men as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by spirit, namely, that people of the nations should be joint heirs and fellow members of the body and partakers with us of the promise in union with Christ Jesus through the good news. I became a minister of this according to the free gift of the undeserved kindness of God that was given me according to the way his power operates." Many secrets in the OT are explained in the NT, under the power of the holy spirit the NT writers were used by Jehovah to explain and teach what before had been secret and only partly seen. To unbelievers many of these things remain secret, without faith they are unable to understand much of what is in the Bible. Sincerely Yours; Wm Scott Anderson
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wmscott Member (Idle past 6278 days) Posts: 580 From: Sussex, WI USA Joined: |
Dear Purpledawn;
quote:The seed of the woman refers to Jesus Christ, notice the part about him receiving the heel wound and later giving the Devil a lethal head wound. The seed of the serpent refers to those who follow him, and the seed of the woman can include those who follow Jesus, hence the enmity between the two groups. By itself this verse is hard to understand, but when you look at it in the context of the long string of OT messianic prophecies, it is easy to understand and see what it means. Revelation refers to this prophecy as well and gives more details, the dragon or serpent is the Devil and the seed or Child is Jesus Christ. (Revelation 12:4-5) "the dragon kept standing before the woman who was about to give birth, that, when she did give birth, it might devour her child. And she gave birth to a son, a male, who is to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod. And her child was caught away to God and to his throne."
quote:(Galatians 3:16) "Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. It says, not: "And to seeds," as in the case of many such, but as in the case of one: "And to your seed," who is Christ." Paul clearly stated that the prophetic portion of this verse referred to Jesus Christ. quote:Jacob stated that what he told his sons was a prophecy, what was going to happen to their descendants. (Genesis 49:1) "Later on Jacob called his sons and said: "Gather yourselves together that I may tell YOU what will happen to YOU in the final part of the days." Everything predicted came to pass, no man could guess so well, only God can tell what things will happen in such detail, which is what Peter stated. (2 Peter 1:20-21) "For YOU know this first, that no prophecy of Scripture springs from any private interpretation. For prophecy was at no time brought by man's will, but men spoke from God as they were borne along by holy spirit." quote:No one is completely sure of the meaning of the term Shiloh, based on the context in which it is used, "He to Whom It Belongs" is probably a pretty close approximation. Many Bible concordances simply render the meaning as 'Messiah' but something along the lines of 'to whom it belongs' is closer to the probable implied meaning. The context of the verse is that Judah would have the kingship until this 'shiloh' would come and then he would receive it as his. quote:Read it again and pay attention to the parts in bold. Solomon didn't rule forever nor is that the intent of what is being said, rather part of it applied to Solomon and part of it applies to David's Seed, the root of Jessie, the coming Messiah wh would rule forever. (Psalm 110:1-4) "The utterance of Jehovah to my Lord is: "Sit at my right hand Until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet." . . . Jehovah has sworn (and he will feel no regret): "You are a priest to time indefinite According to the manner of Melchizedek!" Melchizedek was a King/Prest which is what the messiah was to be, which was impossible for a king of Israel to be since it was against the law. quote:Yes he did, you missed it, look at the bold type. Who is the one mentioned that has the legal right to the kingship? Psalms refers to his person several times. (Psalm 110:1) "The utterance of Jehovah to my Lord is: "Sit at my right hand Until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet." And in the book of Luke it is stated that the Throne of David would be given to Christ. (Luke 1:32) "This one will be great and will be called Son of the Most High; and Jehovah God will give him the throne of David his father," There are many references to Jesus receiving the kingdom, the throne of David, etc. quote:What you said is a rejection of the necessity of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, I hope you didn't mean it that way. Jesus Christ died for our sins, there is no other way we could have been saved. (Acts 4:12) . . ., there is no salvation in anyone else, for there is not another name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must get saved." quote:Many Bible prophecies are phrased in the past tense. (Revelation 12:9) "So down the great dragon was hurled," quote:The OT is clear on the Messiah coming through David's line. (Psalm 89:3-4)"I have concluded a covenant toward my chosen one; I have sworn to David my servant, 'Even to time indefinite I shall firmly establish your seed, And I will build your throne to generation after generation." We are still waiting for the rest of Isaiah 11 to be fulfilled, haven't you heard of let your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it in heaven? As a christian you should know these things. quote:No, not because you differ from me, but because what you say is in conflict with scripture. If it was the other way around, you would be the one posting all the scriptures and I would be the one doing all the dancing around. quote:Did you read the earlier posts? Paul was very clear that Mosaic covenant had ended with Jesus' death, should I repost the scriptures for you or do you not believe Paul? Don't you remember our discussion about the Law of the Christ? How it was all based on love and how Paul detailed may of its points in his letters? Sincerely Yours; Wm Scott Anderson
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wmscott Member (Idle past 6278 days) Posts: 580 From: Sussex, WI USA Joined: |
Dear Purpledawn;
quote:In taking Bible verses in context it is necessary to consider the immediate text and all the other verses in the Bible where the subject is considered. By considering all the verses in both the OT and the NT it is possible to gain a much better understanding than considering just one occurrence of the subject in isolation. The term for this is 'study'. quote:Reread the verse please; (Genesis 3:15) "I shall put enmity between you and the woman and between your seed and her seed. He will bruise you in the head and you will bruise him in the heel." Christ the 'seed' of the woman would bruise the serpent or Devil in the head. Jesus referred to the fact that in the future he would destroy the Devil and his angels or demons as they are more commonly known. (Matthew 25:41) "Then he will say, in turn, to those on his left, 'Be on YOUR way from me, YOU who have been cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the Devil and his angels." The book of Revelation states when the Devil will be killed. (Revelation 20:7-10) "Now as soon as the thousand years have been ended, . . . And the Devil who was misleading them was hurled into the lake of fire and sulphur," So the destruction of the Devil is due to take place until after the 1,000 year rule of Christ. As to the Devil's seed, Jesus identified some who were part of it. (John 8:13) . . .Hence the Pharisees said to him: "You bear witness about yourself; your witness is not true." Jesus told them why they were rejecting him as Messiah. (John 8:44) "YOU are from YOUR father the Devil," Those who have the Devil as their 'father' are his seed, these are the ones who oppose the out working of God's will. quote:As a christian it is not wise for you to reject the words of the apostle Paul, for if he taught wrongly, his words would not be found in the Bible. There are only a few Messianic prophecies in the first five books of the Bible, I have brought nearly all of them up in our discussion and you have rejected all of them as pointing to Jesus Christ. Which puts you in a interesting position as someone who claims to follow Christ, for Jesus said that Moses spoke about him coming as the Messiah. (Luke 24:25-27) "So he said to them: "O senseless ones and slow in heart to believe on all the things the prophets spoke! Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and to enter into his glory?" And commencing at Moses and all the Prophets he interpreted to them things pertaining to himself in all the Scriptures." (Luke 24:44-47) "He now said to them: "These are my words which I spoke to YOU while I was yet with YOU, that all the things written in the law of Moses and in the Prophets and Psalms about me must be fulfilled." Then he opened up their minds fully to grasp the meaning of the Scriptures, and he said to them: "In this way it is written that the Christ would suffer and rise from among the dead on the third day, and on the basis of his name repentance for forgiveness of sins would be preached in all the nationsstarting out from Jerusalem," (John 5:46-47) In fact, if YOU believed Moses YOU would believe me, for that one wrote about me. But if YOU do not believe the writings of that one, how will YOU believe my sayings?" So if you accept the words of Jesus, where are the Messianic references in the books of Moses, the prophets and in Psalms that Jesus was referring too? quote:(Matthew 1:21) "She will give birth to a son, and you must call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins." This is what the Messiah would do that no imperfect King of Israel could never do. Inherited sin, human imperfection is why we grow old and die, why we get sick, why no one was able to keep the law perfectly and why we are unable to serve God perfectly. Once Jesus extends his rulership to the earth, then we will see the literal fulfillment of Isaiah Chapter 11. (Isaiah 11:1-10) " And there must go forth a twig out of the stump of Jesse; and out of his roots a sprout will be fruitful. And upon him the spirit of Jehovah must settle down, the spirit of wisdom and of understanding, the spirit of counsel and of mightiness, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of Jehovah; and there will be enjoyment by him in the fear of Jehovah. And he will not judge by any mere appearance to his eyes, nor reprove simply according to the thing heard by his ears. And with righteousness he must judge the lowly ones, and with uprightness he must give reproof in behalf of the meek ones of the earth. And he must strike the earth with the rod of his mouth; and with the spirit of his lips he will put the wicked one to death. And righteousness must prove to be the belt of his hips, and faithfulness the belt of his loins. And the wolf will actually reside for a while with the male lamb, and with the kid the leopard itself will lie down, and the calf and the maned young lion and the well-fed animal all together; and a mere little boy will be leader over them. And the cow and the bear themselves will feed; together their young ones will lie down. And even the lion will eat straw just like the bull. And the sucking child will certainly play upon the hole of the cobra; and upon the light aperture of a poisonous snake will a weaned child actually put his own hand. They will not do any harm or cause any ruin in all my holy mountain; because the earth will certainly be filled with the knowledge of Jehovah as the waters are covering the very sea. And it must occur in that day that there will be the root of Jesse that will be standing up as a signal for the peoples. To him even the nations will turn inquiringly, and his resting-place must become glorious." In short, the Messiah's rule is to turn the earth into a paradise were the meek will live forever without nothing to fear. Many now dead will be resurrected from the dead to enjoy life under the messiah's rule. (Hosea 13:14) . . .From the hand of Sheol I shall redeem them; from death I shall recover them. . . .(Psalm 49:15) . . .However, God himself will redeem my soul from the hand of Sheol,. . . (Isaiah 26:19) . . ."Your dead ones will live. A corpse of minethey will rise up. Awake and cry out joyfully, YOU residents in the dust! For your dew is as the dew of mallows, and the earth itself will let even those impotent in death drop [in birth]." (Isaiah 25:8) " He will actually swallow up death forever , and the Sovereign Lord Jehovah will certainly wipe the tears from all faces." The same promises are repeated in the NT where more details are given.(Revelation 21:3-4) "Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them. And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away." quote:I am glad you realize what you have been saying is in conflict with scripture, however what I have been saying is not in conflict, look again at the verses you cited. (Matthew 5:17-18) "I came, not to destroy, but to fulfill; for truly I say to YOU that sooner would heaven and earth pass away than for one smallest letter or one particle of a letter to pass away from the Law by any means and not all things take place." (Luke 16:16-17) "The Law and the Prophets were until John. From then on the kingdom of God is being declared as good news, and every sort of person is pressing forward toward it. Indeed, it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one particle of a letter of the Law to go unfulfilled " Christ ended the law by fulfilling it, like it even states in the beginning of the above verse, the Law and the Prophets were until John, and they ended as the hope since then the good news was being preached. In Matthew the law had to be fulfilled before it could pass away. I know you reject the words of Paul, but he merely expanded on what Jesus taught on this point and he was clear that Jesus indeed was the end of the law. quote:Prophecies yet to be fulfilled were written in the past tense as if they had already occurred, the reason for this is that when God says something is going to happen, it is so sure to occur that in a way it already has. Hence the past tense use in prophecies. Sincerely Yours; Wm Scott Anderson
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wmscott Member (Idle past 6278 days) Posts: 580 From: Sussex, WI USA Joined: |
Dear Purpledawn;
Ok, so know you understand about examining context, but now you are questioning the translation to be used. The wording at Genesis 3:15 is not controversial and nearly all translations have nearly identical rendering. Here check out these translations at Bluebible.com. Bible Search and Study Tools - Blue Letter BibleHere at Bluebible.com is the Hebrew text of the verse and as you can see there is not any question about the rendering. Bible Search and Study Tools - Blue Letter Bible Hebrew I am surprised you were able to find any translations that erred as much as the ones you quoted from. It is of the greatest importance to use a highly reliable Bible translation or you will misunderstand many things and miss many others. It is easy to rate NTs using Colwell's rule of Bible Translations using 64 verses and compare those verses to the best text sources and rank the translations by how they score. Here is a web site with the results, I use the NWT most of the time which is at the top of the chart. hector3000.future.easyspace.com is no longer available Here is a site that uses another approach to rate OTs and out of the 21 Translations checked, the NWT also scored the highest.hector3000.future.easyspace.com is no longer available quote:Sure fooled me, what about Genesis 3:14 and all the other Messianic prophecies we have been arguing about? So I will ask again, since you have rejected all of the Messianic prophecies I have brought up, which is nearly all of them, so then where are the prophecies that Jesus referred to that he said spoke of him? I get the impression you are dodging this issue. quote:I will repost from my last post [ As to the Devil's seed, Jesus identified some who were part of it. (John 8:13) . . .Hence the Pharisees said to him: "You bear witness about yourself; your witness is not true." Jesus told them why they were rejecting him as Messiah. (John 8:44) "YOU are from YOUR father the Devil," Those who have the Devil as their 'father' are his seed, these are the ones who oppose the out working of God's will.] Do you need a further explanation? quote:Quite a bit, Paul explained it like this. (Galatians 3:10-25) "For all those who depend upon works of law are under a curse; for it is written: "Cursed is every one that does not continue in all the things written in the scroll of the Law in order to do them." Moreover, that by law no one is declared righteous with God is evident, because "the righteous one will live by reason of faith." Now the Law does not adhere to faith, but "he that does them shall live by means of them." Christ by purchase released us from the curse of the Law by becoming a curse instead of us, because it is written: "Accursed is every man hanged upon a stake." The purpose was that the blessing of Abraham might come to be by means of Jesus Christ for the nations, that we might receive the promised spirit through our faith. . . . Why, then, the Law? It was added to make transgressions manifest, until the seed should arrive to whom the promise had been made; and it was transmitted through angels by the hand of a mediator. Now there is no mediator where only one person is concerned, but God is only one. Is the Law, therefore, against the promises of God? May that never happen! For if a law had been given that was able to give life, righteousness would actually have been by means of law. But the Scripture delivered up all things together to the custody of sin, that the promise resulting from faith toward Jesus Christ might be given to those exercising faith. However, before the faith arrived, we were being guarded under law, being delivered up together into custody, looking to the faith that was destined to be revealed. Consequently the Law has become our tutor leading to Christ, that we might be declared righteous due to faith. But now that the faith has arrived, we are no longer under a tutor." Following the law did not make any one righteous any more than obeying traffic laws would. The key purpose was to highlight sin, that no one could keep the law perfectly because we are all imperfect. The law was merely the tutor leading us to Christ, even the blessing promised under the Abrahamic covenant could not be attainted by the law, only through Christ can the blessings be reached. It was also only with the ending of the law that the blessing of the nations could take place. As to the mundane advantages of ending the law code, the Christians are free of most of the requirements of the law such as attending the three annual festivals in Jerusalem each year, the many sacrificial offerings required by the law, the ceremonial cleanness and uncleanness requirements. None of those things are specifically required under the law of love. Right now if you check the tag in your clothes, you are probably violating the law by wearing a garment made of two different fibers, (Leviticus 19:19) "you must not put upon yourself a garment of two sorts of thread, mixed together." and are you wearing your tassels? (Deuteronomy 22:12) "You should make tassels for yourself on the four extremities of your cloth." Did you remember to put on your fringed skirt with the blue string? (Numbers 15:38) "they must make for themselves fringed edges upon the skirts of their garments throughout their generations, and they must put a blue string above the fringed edge of the skirt," The law code was full of many binding little details like this that people tend to forget about, they tend to focus on the bigger things that are basic things summed up by showing love. quote:No that would be defeating the purpose of writing the new covenant on hearts, with the old code it was rule following, with the new you follow your conscience. With the old it was a matter of following a detailed list of rules while with the new you live it in your heart. The difference is like not doing anything your mother told you not to, instead of being the kind of person your mother wanted you to grow up to be. Instead of mindlessly following rules, we have to think of what God would want us to do. Using the old law as a guide, we can learn of how God views many things and this helps us in deciding what we should do. The difference is like rules for children and guidelines for adults. Sincerely Yours; Wm Scott Anderson
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