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Author Topic:   Faith
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 445 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 152 of 216 (140347)
09-06-2004 1:15 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by happy_atheist
09-06-2004 12:01 PM


Re: Are there things outside those that can be tested?
I don't know, I just see black, as in nothingness. I don't know what it represents. Almost like the vacum of space, to your left.
I guess don't make a left turn in your life, lol.
Also, the way you are getting off the highway, which is a major interstate, and heading north on rt 300 could mean something. Rt 300 at that point is a major road that goes down to a single lane highway.
I don't have anything else right now, but I could pray and ask. If you don't mind I'll tell you what I come up with.
I wish I would have mention the interchange before, that would have made sense. I was scared to start doing this over the internet, so I simplified it, my mistake.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by happy_atheist, posted 09-06-2004 12:01 PM happy_atheist has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by sidelined, posted 09-06-2004 1:35 PM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 162 by happy_atheist, posted 09-06-2004 2:13 PM riVeRraT has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 445 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 153 of 216 (140350)
09-06-2004 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 147 by happy_atheist
09-06-2004 12:04 PM


I love your way of thinking. I feel the exact same way.
But that doesn't stop scientists from trying figure out how the brain works when we are happy. They will use objective tests, to describe subjective feelings.
But if there is enough common descripitions amoung several people, it may still be subjective, but it holds validity.
Your green might be my blue, I always wondered that lol. The way our brain translates color might be different(or eyes could transpose the wavelength), and we all actually like the same interpretation, so we all have the same favorite color, lol.
Imagine if we looked at the world through someone elses eyes, and it was completely different, I would freak out!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by happy_atheist, posted 09-06-2004 12:04 PM happy_atheist has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 445 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 155 of 216 (140353)
09-06-2004 1:28 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by sidelined
09-06-2004 12:11 PM


Then we get into true Christianity, and reasoning of other religions.
But that gets complex, and I have theories on that. I believe that everything is for the glory of God. But nothing is proven, so I'll just go by what happens to me personally. It's all for the good.
If you go by mans example of God, and religion, you would have a hard time beliving in him. But when the promises of Jesus are fullfilled to you, and you meet other people who also had those promises fullfilled, there are great similarities, that cannot be ignored.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by sidelined, posted 09-06-2004 12:11 PM sidelined has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 445 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 157 of 216 (140364)
09-06-2004 1:41 PM
Reply to: Message 149 by lfen
09-06-2004 12:12 PM


I get very impatient with the stupid rhetorical tricks used in apologetics. But scoring meaningless points by being sarcastic about something that you falsely attribute to your opponent is one of the most common contemporary tricks of creationists and evangelists. I of course can't stop you from doing it but you lose credibility everytime you do it.
You speak beatifully.
Funny thats exactly how I feel about what she said. I never said I accept any scientific theory as being true, only that when conditions exist, gravity will pull you down to the ground. She tried to turn this around and say that I accept gravity as a whole, theory and fact, and thats why I should accept evolution. You need to go back and see how this conversation started.
There have been several analogys presented to me, to make me accept evolution, all of them are sarcastic rhetoric. The only thing that will make me accept evolution, is the actual evidences, and I need to go study it more.
I understand it's much easier to read creationist web sites and repeat pseudo science than it is to read books on science and try to understand the ongoing work. Read the sites you want,enjoy your faith, but if you want your arguments to be taken seriously here then you need to use logic and information, not cheap silly apologetic rhetoric especially using deceptive excerpting to create a false impression to showcase childish sarcasm.
Evolution is something I read about and was taught for over 25 years. Creation science is very new to me.
Thats exactly why I do not accept evolution, or creation. I only believe in creation because I believe that God created the universe, and we are here. This is new for me also. How this happened is a mystery to me.
I came to this decision, because of what happened to me. All the things that Jesus promised came true, and then the truth was known to me, and the truth set me free.
However, I am a realist, and the jury is still out. Right now I believe it with all my heart and soul, and it gets proven to me on a daily basis. But I retain the right to change my mind however doubtful.
I have not given any apologetic rhetoric, or deceptive excerpting, I am a realist.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by lfen, posted 09-06-2004 12:12 PM lfen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 164 by lfen, posted 09-06-2004 2:24 PM riVeRraT has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 445 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 158 of 216 (140372)
09-06-2004 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 150 by nator
09-06-2004 12:53 PM


1) You don't know anything about it.
2) You have a lot of misconceptions about it.
3) Your religious beliefs require that you reject evolution but not other scientific theories.
No, maybe, and no.
That evolution happens is a fact.
The Theory of Evolution is not a fact, but an explanation of the facts (evidence), just like it is a fact that matter is made up of atoms, but the Atomic Theory of Matter is not a fact, but an explanation of the facts (evidence).
How is it fact?
Are you talking about bacteria in a petri dish?
Or the fruit fly?
The thing is, that is their personal, religious/philosophical choice if they do that or not.
AHHHHHHHH, I'm so glad you said that.
I hope you agree they have no right to push that belief on others.
...but did you notice anything regarding God or religious-type faith in the papers?
I am trying to get a documented miracle, but I have been busy lately.
But how does some people starting to believe in gravitational theory as a religion change the theory of gravity?
The theory is the same, regardless of how some people view it, right?
Are you saying that if some people start believing in the Theory of Gravity as a religion, pencils will start falling up and planetary orbits will begin to change?
Its a bad comparison, biology and pyhsics are very different, so I doubt that would happen. Lets keep them separate.
If you don't understand the ToE, then why do you reject it?
If you don't understand the various Theories of Gravity, why do you accept them?
Because I don't fully understand I guess.
Plus the fact that some scientists reject it, leads me to question it.
Plus the I feel the truth was made known to me through God, and it set me free. I just cannot explain it objectivly.
Which parts do you still have issues with?
We are like a broken record now.
WE went over that.
How about answering the question I asked right after the bit you quoted above but you failed to include:
My concerns with the germ theory and ToE are completely different, so it has nothing to do with what I'm talking about.
This, in fact, completely contradicts your claim that it is the scientists often committing fraud, and colluding with each other to maintain falsehoods.
So its the medias fault again?
Do all people who get cancer die of it?
No, some actually get rid of it on their own, but scientist do not consider it a miracle.
You are confusing antibiotics and vaccines.
No I'm not. I know the difference. If we devolop resistance to a desease on our own, or if it is introduced to use through a vaccine, isn't there a difference? Couldn't we be forcing evolution to work against us, by taking away the ability to create resistance on our own? I understand how slight this chance might be, but remeber how I feel about odds.
...and eclipses? Are astronomers mostly wrong about when eclipses happen?
Not sure, but they could be slightly off, no matter how small.
It's pretty irrelevant I know.
But you haven't supported your claim that science is "wrong most of the time" at all.
I don't have to, just read history.
You must Love talking to me

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by nator, posted 09-06-2004 12:53 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 165 by nator, posted 09-06-2004 2:31 PM riVeRraT has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 445 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 159 of 216 (140377)
09-06-2004 1:59 PM
Reply to: Message 156 by sidelined
09-06-2004 1:35 PM


Re: Are there things outside those that can be tested?
Lmao. So that makes what I said invalid?
What a joke.
Why would you search the entire nation, when I gave you the exact town it is located in? Is that your personal scientific method?
Here:
Official MapQuest - Maps, Driving Directions, Live Traffic XA2R6GHaUdaivz35PGaAM2N4vdPtdCJrPRL%252fzqrhkiWnzOmx%252fXJ7tyBNiZTsM4cHRhLLnpB7QrvUhStF32uhFZ%252b1QYrYORRPe84WPKkiwFaf3o7gtXD%252fWx5%252fIhzvL575yYaY6tfKBAv15uGruXhf%252flC7upYu xJwjtFzJFGpDk3ZS2lDDtwKszVjBXN8oJtfnpCCnhzKVbyOpFPb9UywvWAVI7DgvI3C8EgOnGGh0blskIr9nzKq883rCgNxS9CMA%253d%253d

This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by sidelined, posted 09-06-2004 1:35 PM sidelined has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 163 by sidelined, posted 09-06-2004 2:24 PM riVeRraT has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 445 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 171 of 216 (140427)
09-06-2004 5:23 PM
Reply to: Message 160 by nator
09-06-2004 2:08 PM


Boy, you are writing me novels, lol
If you think that Gravity is such a simple concept, why don't you explain the various Gravitational Theories here, including their role in planetaty orbits and stellar formation. Throw in some stuff explaining the gravitation of black holes for bonus points.
Please indicate which version you think is most accurate, and why.
Last time, I accept gravity, or whatever you would like to call the force that makes blood drip, but I do not accept any gravitational theories, as 100% accurate.
No more talk about gravity ok?
I am having to correct you almost every time you respond to something I've written, because you are not correctly grasping or comprehending what I write.
Nor you I.
Just because you state something irrelevant doesn't mean I do not get it.
Do las Vegas casinos lose money because the odds are irrelevant? Or, do they make money precisely because they can calculate the odds very accurately?
I thought I cleared up the fact that mathematical odds, and biological odds are completely different.
Anyway no matter the odds, people beat them sometimes.
I'm sure at some point they had to put the odds greatly in their favor, because despite the odds, people can still win.
You were telling me that you rejected evolution because an individual, me, could not instantaneously change into a very different species.
No you missed my point.
Because my genome is fixed. Evolution does not happen to individuals, but to populations.
Ok, I admit I do not understand what you are saying here. Wouldn't your genome change should the populations change? Doesn't that make it not fixed? Why is evolution limited to populations only?
Since we know that whales are mammals, what features would we expect to find in their ancestors if they evolved from land-dwelling mammals?
Ok, I will give you my personal creationalist theory.
Since we are created in God's image, he probably made things the same way we make things. We start off simple, then go on to the more complicated stuff. Every think of that? There is prenty evidence of this. Can you bring evidence to the table that disproves this?
Since one day is like a thousand years to God, he could have taken as long as he wanted, or it could appear to have taken a long time to us for all this to happen.
But yes, I agree the current evidence for whale evolution is compelling.
Do you know how you got your genetic information?
Yes from an individual.
That's good that you have questions and want to learn more, but judging from what you have shown me in our discussions, you are far, far from having a basic understanding of evolution.
Because I question it so much, doesn't mean I do not have at least a basic understanding of it.
Let me guess. Those "debate videos" are all from religious and Creationist sources, right?
Those debates are only convincing to the uneducated, which you are.
Yes but they include non-creationalist people who argue the side of evolution. Why would an evolutionist want to produce a video like that? Better yet, why don't they?
Have you considered that God used evolution?
Yes, but that raises even more questions. For years and years that what I thought happened. We were created to evolve. Then for some reason, I thought that was foolish to think. I think it was because of subjective reasoning though.
I.E. If there is a God, why would he not come to us and tell us why we are here, and how we came to be. Or better yet, why would he allow the bible to be written if it wasn't true? I mean he is all powerful right? But now I find out that really evolution only disputes the literal translation of genesis, which was a dream anyway.
I can explain other religions, because Jesus kind of hints towards their existance (false Gods), and how they must change. God may have presented himself to them, and for the time it was ok for many humans to believe in many different Gods, which are all really the same God. Now they must come to Christ. If it's all for his glory it could kind of make sense.
This is why in my belief that I try to follow what Jesus taught us, and that is what is most important to me. That doesn't make the rest of the bible useless though, there are many stories that teach a great many lessons in there.
You have taken a scientists word for it that they are asteroids.
Or I have seen actual pictures of them from spacecraft. This is real time science, not digging something up that is "millions" years old, and saying what happened. Big difference.
What, pray tell, are "biological odds", and what makes the math used in the statistical analysis of Biology data fundamentally different from any other math.
Because the analysis is subject to many variables that may be unknown.
So the odds could never fully be known.
Just like astronomers trying to figure out if the earth is going to get hit by an object or not. We can give odds on the known objects, and even then, one of those objects could be hit by another unknown object, and then be pushed into earth's orbit, we just don't know.
It is fallatious to say, AFTER YOU WON, that your odds of winning were 1:1.
Maybe, maybe not. we haven't figured out that yet. There is much to learn about life.
You odds of winning are the same as anybody else's who bought the same number of tickets as you did.
No...no they weren't. They pick different #'s than me.
Math is math.
Not everybody in this forum thinks that, I have read contrary to that. It is however what I think, that math is math. 2+2always=4
No, they also predict the distribution of number of winning tickets from random chance.
Where is faith involved?
I don't think they do that. Can you support that claim?
Or how they could attain that number? They would have to know the unknown to calculate that with accuracy.
No to the first sentence, because it's random, which is dealing with statistics, and no to the second sentence, because that has nothing to do with statistics.
Statistics? I am talking about the odds of winning.
You who thinks that Murpey's Law is used by insurance companies understands statistics better than me.
I know this for a fact. If there is a chance of anything happening, they will charge us for the possibility of it happening, not how many times it has actually happened. Odds from previous accidents have something to do with it, but not everything to do with it.
Well, sure, it depends upon how many people play.
But the rest is completely accurate.
Where is faith involved?
I don't know, ask the millions who play, and think they have a chance at winning. Thinking you have a chance no matter the odds is a sure sign of faith to me. Not just a chance per say, but a chance at beating the odds. i.e. I believe I can beat the odds. People even get addicted to that faith.
Remember faith is belief in something for which there is no proof.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by nator, posted 09-06-2004 2:08 PM nator has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 178 by happy_atheist, posted 09-06-2004 6:23 PM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 179 by happy_atheist, posted 09-06-2004 6:26 PM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 180 by happy_atheist, posted 09-06-2004 6:29 PM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 182 by lfen, posted 09-06-2004 7:07 PM riVeRraT has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 445 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 172 of 216 (140428)
09-06-2004 5:25 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by happy_atheist
09-06-2004 2:13 PM


Re: Are there things outside those that can be tested?
Ok, thanks. I will let you know. I will also pray about it.
I mean the highway interchange is obvious, but I didn't mention until after you said that you were at a crossroad, so I can't prove to you that it was my vision. I screwd up.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by happy_atheist, posted 09-06-2004 2:13 PM happy_atheist has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 177 by happy_atheist, posted 09-06-2004 6:21 PM riVeRraT has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 445 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 173 of 216 (140430)
09-06-2004 5:28 PM
Reply to: Message 163 by sidelined
09-06-2004 2:24 PM


Re: Are there things outside those that can be tested?
You are the grand prize winner!
You are the first person who apologized to me on this forum, and you get my greatest respect. Thank you for that, however small it may seem, it is awesome. I also apologize when I'm wrong.
I live close to there, I think thats why I was seeing that interchange.
I am also wondering why it was that particular interchange.
To the left of that interchange where I see the blackness is actually an Air Force base. I wonder if..are you reading this happy?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by sidelined, posted 09-06-2004 2:24 PM sidelined has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 445 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 174 of 216 (140431)
09-06-2004 5:30 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by lfen
09-06-2004 2:24 PM


I like your attitude.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by lfen, posted 09-06-2004 2:24 PM lfen has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 445 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 175 of 216 (140434)
09-06-2004 5:35 PM
Reply to: Message 165 by nator
09-06-2004 2:31 PM


Now you hurt my feelings, seriously.
I always admit my mistakes.
I am sorry you feel that way.
If I say I am not qualified to argue about evolution, and you keep trying to argue with me about it, what should I do. I am visiting those links you gave, but there is a lot of reading there.
Try not to think of it as weaseling, but that maybe, just maybe I can bring a new point to light. You obviously have misconceptions about odds, yet you won't admit it. Since science is based on odds and statistical data, and odds themselves are flawed, Plus data can be wrong because of what goes into making them, then science can be flawed. This doesn't mean it is or it isn't. Just that it can be.
I am very interested in what you are telling me, otherwise I wouldn't even talk to you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by nator, posted 09-06-2004 2:31 PM nator has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 445 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 176 of 216 (140437)
09-06-2004 5:45 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by nator
09-06-2004 2:42 PM


Ok, I am glad you asked that question.
Wouldn't you admit that not every Christian seems to be the same or acting in a God like manor? Do you think Hilter was really following Jesus when he killed all those Jews?
The bible says this:
Romans 8:9
You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.
So since you are a good judge of who is in christ or not, then you can judge them by their fruits. The only mistakes we make are letting those people keep us from God. God rightfully belongs to you. Its your personal relationship with him that takes precendence over all other things, people, religions, whatever.
If you study Christ or not (I don't know that you do, but I assume you have a knowledge of him) It is very clear who has the spirit of Christ. Priest who molest children clearly are not in the spirit of Christ. Does this mean that all Priests aren't? I don't really care, all I do is forgive those people, so that I can be forgiven, and let God deal with them. He has never let me down yet.
So I don't think that you should lump all people together like you just did, and then use that as an exuse to not believe in God. It would be like me after talking to some of the scientists at my previous job lump all scientists into that category. I don't, even though you may think I do. I won't discriminate, no matter what the odds.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by nator, posted 09-06-2004 2:42 PM nator has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 445 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 183 of 216 (140492)
09-06-2004 8:15 PM
Reply to: Message 177 by happy_atheist
09-06-2004 6:21 PM


Re: Are there things outside those that can be tested?
I can't say that I am right now, nothing major anyway. But every few years yea.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by happy_atheist, posted 09-06-2004 6:21 PM happy_atheist has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 445 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 184 of 216 (140493)
09-06-2004 8:16 PM
Reply to: Message 178 by happy_atheist
09-06-2004 6:23 PM


Isn't that different than the actual odds on the back of the ticket, which we were talking about?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by happy_atheist, posted 09-06-2004 6:23 PM happy_atheist has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 445 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 185 of 216 (140495)
09-06-2004 8:19 PM
Reply to: Message 179 by happy_atheist
09-06-2004 6:26 PM


Thats what I'm saying.
But! that still doesn't it make it your personal odds of winning or losing. Because some people can win more than others, most loose though.
How would explain that? and don't say luck.
I really don't have much problem with mathematical odds, its odds that are based a bunch of unknowns that bother me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by happy_atheist, posted 09-06-2004 6:26 PM happy_atheist has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 199 by happy_atheist, posted 09-07-2004 10:49 AM riVeRraT has not replied

  
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