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dogmai Guest |
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Author | Topic: We are the gods.. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
John Inactive Member |
quote: I thought it was Allah.... no, Shiva... no, that's not it, Marduk.... wait, no, Ra .... hang on, Tagaloa .... oops, sorry, Pan Gu.... Great Spirit, Tu-Chia-pai, Pele, Unkulunkulu, Bumba........ ------------------http://www.hells-handmaiden.com
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John Inactive Member |
quote: Good grief..... Don't you get it? An appeal to the Bible is meaningless to me.
quote: You assume that I haven't read the Bible. I have-- four times end to end during my adult life and I had unmeasurable exposure during my childhood-- church three time a week, Bible classes, youth groups, retreats.
quote: Virtually every god on the planet has a son.
quote: Are you trying to hypnotise me?
quote: But I am not. It is a book, just a BOOK!
quote: You are getting sleepy.... sleepy.....
quote: oops, beat you to it.
quote: It gets more absurd the more I read it.
quote: And the answers are meaningless if the book is just another book of mythology, which it is.
quote: Assuming the veracity of the Bible...
quote: Really, you just don't get it.
quote: Nope, sorry, I don't know this.
quote: No more so than any other book of mythology.
quote: Don't care at all what you believe. Your belief isn't evidence.
quote: You don't know your bible very well. God, just God, actually goes by many different names. Ever read it in HEBREW? Skipping the personnal witnessing.
quote: If one likes slaughter, rape, slavery, misogyny, cruelty, vicious injustice.... but actually, for such like DeSade is much more fun.
quote: Shutting brain of now. ------------------http://www.hells-handmaiden.com
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John Inactive Member |
quote: I certainly am, it seems. ------------------http://www.hells-handmaiden.com
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John Inactive Member |
quote: Comment if you want. But you won't.
quote: Yeah, I knew that.
quote: My God, the arrogance is just dizzy-ing!!! The myopia... What you see is someone who has spent the better part of his life obsessed with the same issues, I wager, that you spend your time contemplating. AND I disagree with you. I have reason for every point of contention I hold.
quote: The parts I wrote, yes.
quote: And you know this about me how?
quote: And believing a book written by an Israelite Priesthood 2.5-3 thousand years ago isn't filling your mind with someone else's thoughts? Please...
quote: Again, the arrogance..... Not your beliefs == not true. Come down off of that pedastal and come up with something substantial.
[quote][b]you seem to be wearing your rain shoes puddle hopping from someone elsesbeliefs[/quote] [/b] You seem to be throwing a lot of stones based on your assumptions of me.
quote: And I always will be confused until I agree with you, right? How did you become the final judge of truth? Snide.... fine, but deadly serious. Why should I believe you? Simple, direct question. Why should I believe you?
[quote][b]which is a good thing in that you are searching for the truth. [/quote] [/b] Sadly you are not, if you were you might find it within yourself to actualy discuss something instead of insisting, preaching, condescending and dismissing.
quote: No problem with that one.
quote: Yes father....
quote: I have chosen my belief. But unlike yourself, if I may extrapolate from your posts thus far, my beliefs are mutable and vary with evidence. Your beliefs are set in stone and nothing, however reasonable, will sway you from your steady course.
quote: Believe first, ask questions later. Why does this not seem backwards to you?
quote: Perhaps you should work on your presentation. Speaking to me as I were a child and you my mentor is terrible offensive.
quote: .... condescending ....
quote: What?
quote: Right and you are providing me with no reason to believe otherwise. Really, all I need is evidence. Where is it?
quote: Look, if you want to search the scriptures, then pick something and lets analyze it. You see the word of GOD, I see a chaotic mess of contradiction, violence and horror. Prove me wrong. I dare ya.
quote: Right because I came to a very different conclusion than you. Can you see the pretension?
quote: Have you any ideas how many similar tales there are in world mythology? Why chose your over those?
quote: ummmmmmm....... no. My real question is "Why should I believe your mythology over any other mythology when none of them have any demonstrable merit beyond the socio-political?"
quote: Then give me reason to believe otherwise. So far you've done no better than "because I said so' and the ever popular and ever circular 'the bible is true because it says its true."
quote: Why do you think you can get inside my head?
quote: Back this up. I know you must be itching to quote something.
quote: You'll never believe me, but I did. I was raised christian. One day I realized that it does no good to believe if you believe the wrong thing. So I started searching, thinking the truth would shine. It didn't. And doesn't.
quote: Exactly my thoughts as well. But I have sense enough to realize that not every boat that CLAIMS to be the right one, actually is the right one. This boat leaks like a seive.
quote: This is meaningless unless one already believes. I CHOOSE TO BELIEVE> the word of God.. i choose to believe he created the heaven and the earth.. its sad to hear people reject Jesus and his forgiving power..He is such a forgiving God..he is so giving, that he GIVES us the POWER to become his children. He lets us CHOOSE or reject him because he didnt create us as a slave.[/b][/quote] What you believe is fine by me, but why should I take your word for it?
quote: MEANINGLESS UNLESS ONE ALREADY BELIEVES.
quote: Really, great... lets have it.
quote: Nope, that's not it. You don't know your bible very well, or history for that matter.
quote: This is insane.
quote: halle- freaking -luyah!!!!!
quote: Pascal's wagar is flawed on so very many levels. You wanna talk. Take me up on it.
quote: What if it isn't? Even worse, what if you've chosen the wrong GOD? So far you've given me nothing but scripture. There are lots of scriptures out there. Suppose one of them is right, then we are both damned. This is the major flaw with Pascal's wager-- false dicotomy. ------------------http://www.hells-handmaiden.com
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John Inactive Member |
quote: This is an open forum, Allen. Expect responses from anyone interested. Besides which, Andya is well worth a listen. ------------------http://www.hells-handmaiden.com
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John Inactive Member |
quote: Not at all. 1. "Focus on the trivial". I agree with you, actually. That these things are not related to a person's worth and/or spiritual life is exactly the point. And, yes, it is sad that I have encountered these reactions from all but a very few Christians
quote: Agreed, again. You have made very much the argument I will eventually make once I get around to elaborating upon the content of that page. Of course, my arguments will not be from the point of view of a Christian. My take on the matter is that doctrines such as this one undercut personnal responsibility for one's actions. I have heard this case made point blank by Christians on too many occasions to count. ------------------http://www.hells-handmaiden.com
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John Inactive Member |
quote: I like this one too. And the body of Christ smells pretty rancid.
quote: Same argument works for pretty much any creator god, yes?
quote: Can you cite some verses? I know I have seen something similar but I can't find it.
quote: There are verses in the Bible which suggest otherwise. Halcyonwaters, on this forum, has been discussing this point with me. HW takes the opposite view than you.
quote: It seems likely to me that this is representative of the early church, though its hard to say with certainty. ------------------http://www.hells-handmaiden.com [This message has been edited by John, 08-19-2002]
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John Inactive Member |
quote: Did I read this right? ------------------http://www.hells-handmaiden.com
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John Inactive Member |
quote: Respectfully, I think your first formulation is correct. Plenty of religious people have great personal standards, but wasn't the point that due to the fact that books must be interpretted the claim to absolute moral standards is false? ------------------http://www.hells-handmaiden.com
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John Inactive Member |
quote: Same here. ------------------http://www.hells-handmaiden.com
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John Inactive Member |
[QUOTE][b]You are right in saying that Darwinfs COUSIN, Francis Galton was the originator of the word eugenics. I wonder where he got that idea from! From the theory of evolution of course.[/quote]
[/b] I wonder where Hitler the idea of Christianity!!!!! From the Christians, of course. See how silly the argument is, TJ?
quote: No one person. Science doesn't work that way.
quote: There is no such thing as 'more evolved' There is 'better adapted to a particular environment than ....' but this isn't the same thing. More specialized organism only have the advantage until conditions changed. Then they are at a BIG disadvantage. The less specialized come out on top as the less specialized are more flexible though less efficient.
quote: What? The Bible says no such thing.
quote: Really? Have you read the Old Testament? It is full of genocide and injucntions against inter-marriage with non-Isrealites. Sounds pretty racist to me and sounds like a program of eugenics to boot. ------------------http://www.hells-handmaiden.com
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John Inactive Member |
quote: quote: TJ, it doesn't matter if Hitler was a Christian or not. He used the idea of Christianity for his own purposes whether sincerely or deceitfully. This is exactly what people have done with the ToE. The idea has been used to draw unwarranted conclusions. You feel perfectly comfortable criticising the ToE because it has been mis-used, but you do not want Christianity criticised because it has been mis-used. This is a double standard.
quote: It is a double standard, as I have explained. I find that funny Sorry, strange since of humor.
quote: You may as well say it. This is the teeth of your argument. Without this inference, what is left of the criticism of Darwin? "Darwin was wrong" hmmmm..... not terribly wicked.
quote: First, you need to support the claim that his ideas were unscientific. Secondly, most anything can lead to unpleasant consequences. You could blaim Einstein for the atomic bomb, or Spanish ship builders in the 1400s for the deaths of countless American Indians, or Chinese fireworks makers for the death and destruction caused by firearms, or Jung for new-age pop psychology.....
quote: Didn't say I was concerned actually.
[quote][b]There is no ultimate right and wrong, so you cannot say it is wrong.[/quote] [/b] And you, TJ, is there an ultimate right and wrong? I dare you to find one.
quote: I could say that it makes no sense. This is a rational decision and one I could defend, but for the sake of the topic, I won't.
quote: Did I now? I don't remember saying anything of the sort. That makes your statement an unwarranted conclusion whether I believe the statement or not.
quote: God has been in the equation since the dawn of recorded history and the tale is pretty bloody.
quote: Try reading the Old Testament, TJ.
quote: Again, try reading the Bible. Racism is part and parcel of what it meant to be an Isrealite.
quote: You have completely missed the point. Science is based on evidence. That evidence is interpretted by thousands of researchers, not by one. The consensus of opinion determines the corect interpretation-- always tentatively and dependant upon current knowledge.
quote: Struck a nerve? What is this outburst about? You don't need to believe evolution to understand how it is supposed to work. Yeah, Hitler believed in higher and lower races. That isn't the point. Evolution does not work that way, hence Hitler WAS NOT USING EVOLUTION. Why is that so hard to grasp?
quote: Some scientists.... Besides, you have your causality wrong. Racism existed long before Darwin and was quite widely accepted as fact. The scientists were not converted by Darwin, they just went on believing what they had always believed. Some used Darwin's theory to justify that belief.
quote: This is a mis-representation of the process. The organisms that cannot survive don't survive, they don't mate with "less specialized creature to regain genetic information" The organisms that can survive, move in and take over. Simple.
quote: umm..... what about all of that "thou shalt not mate with foreigners stuff...?"
quote: gee.... that isn't racist? It seems to fit the definition.
quote: quote: Right. And God did the punishing himself? Nope. Hordes of sword wielding Isrealites killed, raped and pillaged in the name of God. How do we know God told them? We don't. And neither did they. A priest or a King told them it was God's will. Hi ho! hi ho! its off to war we go. Just like in the case of Adolf.
quote: Verify the Bible as a source first, then I'll listen. You guys always seem to forget this necessary logical step. ------------------http://www.hells-handmaiden.com
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John Inactive Member |
quote: You have a really warped perception of non-Christians.
quote: As I have pointed out, the IDEA of God has been around for all of recorded history and the tale is pretty bloody. It seems to me that the evidence is that the IDEA of God is pretty damned dangerous.
quote: I'm skipping this. It belongs in another thread.
quote: Right... because scientist are all Hollywoodesque Dr. Moreau mad-man types. Try getting a grip on your mis-perception of non-Christians.
quote: Eugenics is selection for traits without knowing which traits will eventually be useful. Hence, it makes no sense.
quote: Your phrasing abortion as 'torture' is misleading. What you want to ask is whether I know of any cultures who consider abortion/infanticide to be a moral act. Yes. Numerous cultures have taken this stance. The Spartans for one.
quote: Yanomamo. oh.... and the ancient Isrealites as long as 1) the victim wasn't an isrealite, 2) you married the victim in the aftermath, 3)certain special circumstances apply-- such as in the case of Lot and the angels.
quote: You need to read your Bible.
quote: Why is it dangerous to leave God out of the picture when with God in the picture it is sometimes OK?
quote: This knee-jerk reaction is sidestepping the issue. I did not say that God is responsible. I said that God-- the idea of God-- has been in the equation all along and that the result has been pretty nasty.
quote: Don't tell me that you have read the OT and missed all the conquest, murder and kidnapping? Please, TJ, don't play dumb.
quote: Then why not ditch the OT?
quote: I was going to post some verses for you but why bother? You are aware of precisely what you deny.
quote: quote: Right... like a woman's deserving death for touching a man's pee-pee during a fight. Or, obviously, a rape victim not crying out loudly enough. Deut. 22:23-24.
quote: Well, there is Numbers 31:9, 31:32-36.
quote: I was thinking more about how the Isrealites pretty much get to kill, rape and pillage at will and with God's blessing. It doesn't speek much for the theory that we are all equal and have worth.
quote: Like bloody hell! The OT is full of orders from God to kill other peoples. Ex. 23:24, 34:11-14, Num. 21:1-5.
quote: How do you breathe with your head under so much sand?
quote: I've covered this.
quote: Funny thing, the Bible is interpretted by fallible people too. So would you like to retract the objection or shall I dismiss your religion-- with your blessing-- based on the same grounds?
quote: Only creationists push this characature of science. Scientist know damn well that scientists are biased and fallible. This is why science must be reproducible and conclusions testable. Different people, different biases, same answer--- well gee, maybe it is true.
quote: LOL..... ask a scientist!!!!!!
quote: 'k
quote: If that is all you want, I have no problem; but I bet you want more than that. I'd bet that you want to include theories for which there is no evidence.
[quote][b]TJ replies: No it is not so simple. Let's take a group oof Great Danes..... But if small size were to suddently be an advantage for survival, this species of dog would go extinct.[quote][b] Exactly what I said.
quote: Breeders are not working with time-frames of millions of years, and ten's of thousands of generations.
quote: This is the biggest problem with the cartoon creationist version of evolution. Thankfully, that isn't the ToE. Here is an experiment-- difficult but not impossible. Take two dogs and sequence their DNA. Breed the two. Sequence the DNA of the pups and check for mutations. Wham-bam!!!! There is the new genetic material.
quote: Patently false. See above.
quote: Really, you have just given a nice pro-racist sermonette.
quote: Sure there is, theoretically.
quote: And we know the prophet were no lying or tripping becasue they said so? You have got to joking.
quote: Lots 'o prophets spoke falsely.
quote: Or so says a book for which we have no external verification of its accuracy. Many religious texts claim miracles. You believe all of them I suppose?
quote: More like, miracles don't happen. Miracles conveniently stopped happening at some point in the distant magical past.
quote: And how did you come to the conclusion that I am not?
quote: Yeah, and unless you have something new, they are all crap. Otherwise, I'd be on your side.
quote: I thought you were honestly searching for the truth?
quote: No kidding.
quote: I'm deleting the sermon.
quote: I thought you were honestly searching for the truth? ------------------http://www.hells-handmaiden.com
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John Inactive Member |
quote: So does God's Will... and that has been used as an excuse since the beginning of recorded history.
quote: You seem to be saying that the idea of evolution is respoinsible for bad behavior, but that the same criterion cannot be applied to the idea of God. This is a double standard.
quote: There is no absolute moral law anyway, despite the claims of religion to the contrary. Why? Because people simply incorporate their whims into their faith.
quote: This reflects your perception of non-christians. You contrast faith-inspired behavior with a straw man version of non-faith-inspired behavior.
quote: You are right. Some checks need to be in place, depending on the research.
quote: What you are asking me is "If it made sense, would it be OK?"
[quote][b]Everything is relative.[/quote] [/b] It always has been. Denying this doesn't change anything and tagging the sanction of God onto an opinion only makes the relative more dangerous.
quote: Remember, the discussion is about faith-based morality vs. non-faith-based morality. It is not about finding the extremes of behavior.
quote: You missed my point. What is not beneficial now, may be beneficial in the future. We simply don't know. Even Down's Syndrome, or some further mutation of the genes involved could be beneficial, or some genes associated with it but not responsible for the disabling conditions associated with it. The best example of what I thinking about is sickle cell anemia. It is crippling and eventually lethal, but provides a survival advantage in areas infested with sleeping sickness.
quote: Actually, ours condones the purposeful infliction of pain on babies. It is called circumcision.
quote: The Isrealites, who got it from the Egyptians, and passed it along to us.
quote: It wasn't that hard.
quote: Really? I suspect some term re-definition goin on here.
quote: Yes. South American indians. It is the largest group of S.A. Indians and probably the most studied tribe on the planet. They show up frequently in movies and even a PS2 commercial.
quote: Strange as it seems....
quote: One study I read quoted a Yanamamo woman as saying "I am afraid my husband does not love me because he does not beat me enough" or something to that effect. I am going from memory.
quote: Interesting bunch. They are known as the Fierce People.
quote: Do you realy believe this? Ask a rape victim how fair this punishment is?
quote: Would the idea even cross your mind? Should I let my daughters be gang-raped.... hmmmmm.....? See what I mean about the idea of God not being the best guide for morality. [qutoe]Give the men the angels sent from God to be gang raped or give them his daughter.[/quote] How about give them neither and take a stand? Godless, faithless, evolutionist that I am, I'd consider myself as having no choice but that one.
quote: TJ, the God of the OT isn't the God you describe.
quote: Probably, but I try not to edit the meaning.
quote: God and God's agents have ordered exactly the behaviors which God supposedly disaproves of. You can have it both ways.
quote: And again you avoid the point. You make the claim that the idea of evolution is dangerous and that the idea of God keeps people in check. I am pointing out that that idea does not keep people in check.
quote: I'm not blaming it on Christians. I am saying that the idea of God has not kept people in check.
quote: Right. How else would we know from whom we can take slaves?
quote: It is a mythological history of a tiny tribe of warlike nomads. It has value in being that I suppose.
quote: He is nothing like God in the NT.
quote: Actually.... I can't tell that Christ fits the genealogical requirements for being the messiah, as outlined in the OT.
quote: God consistently gives the command to conquer any people not like the Isrealites. It doesn't take a big leap to realize that if God, in the past, commanded HIS people to kill those not like them, the same rules apply today.
quote: I think you are confusing war and the consequent death, destruction and slavery with judgement-- perfectly illustrating how religion DOES NOT check human behavior.
quote: Sorry, it isn't kill. It is 'cut off her hand' Duet. 25:11-12 ------------------http://www.hells-handmaiden.com
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John Inactive Member |
quote: Is this from a hymn perhaps? It has that hymnal twang.
quote: I don't recall God giving them any special gifts. He just beat them up a lot.
quote: Perplexing... but I like the sound of it.
quote: Of course, none of are... except the Jews of course.
quote: The comparison fits. The Jewish People were, if you believe the mythology, every bit as murderous and vicious. Lets not forget about that Nazi state called Isreal. ------------------http://www.hells-handmaiden.com
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