Jesus and evil

This topic arises out of statement by MTW in Satan and Prayer. First off Christ suffered in what way other than death upon the cross? This is a horrible death to be sure but not n uncommon one in those days that I am sure pales in comparison to some modern day instruments of death.I would also like to understand how any sane person can believe that evil is perpetrated by anything other than humans.We wield the weapons and we deliver the blow that maims and kills.

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"O Lord our God, help us tear their soldiers to bloody shreds with our shells; help us to cover their smiling fields with the pale forms of their patriot dead; help us to drown the thunder of the guns with the shrieks of their wounded, writhing in pain; help us to lay waste their humble homes with a hurricane of fire; help us to wring the hearts of their unoffending widows with unavailing grief; help us to turn them out roofless with their little children to wander unfriended the wastes of their desolated land in rags and hunger and thirst, sports of the sun flames of summer and the icy winds of winter, broken in spirit, worn with travail, imploring Thee for the refuge of the grave and denied it..." [Mark Twain, "The War Prayer"]

MTW I do not see how that is a conclusion you can reach without assigning the same to all acts of "evil". It is more sensible that we assume that levels of evil amount to no more than levels of reaction we have to the various acts people perpetrate against one another that inflict suffering.
Those levels reflect a measure we assess against our individual value systems,however, the acts are still the result of choices made by individuals whether it is something they can control or is a defect in the brains control of actions that is a result of possibly a chemical imbalance or damage to the brain.I also would like to know what it is about Christ's death that was so horrible that sins are magically abolished by his sacrifice.There are after all more exruciating deaths that have been suffered by others throughout history.I do not see the connection between the suffering and the abolishment of all sins {which would have amounted to a stretch in hell for all the individual sinners}. It somehow seems to make no real sense and an insufficient balance between the "evil" acts and the payment of dues.

jar Yes jar I understand this.What puzzles me is if we assume this to be the case what then is the need of christ dying on the cross and suffering in the first place? Why not simply have him live out his life performing miracles or simply vanish into the mists of time?Why is suffering on the part of christ considered necessary to have us accept a gift that is freely given? Violence like that is hardly,in my view, what I would consider something worth following since by dint of the biblical God's hand he found it necessary to cause suffering.I will not follow a biblical God{assuming I believed in God} for the very reason that he strikes me as not being very stable emotionally. I must protest{and certainlynot in defense of these peoples actions} because they are powerless in the equation of what you term EVIL without those people who follow them as mindless drones,questioning nothing as point of course. It is this very human action that leads to the atrocities of Waco or Heaven's Gate or Jonestown.I find no more evil with Gene or Jerry or Jim than I do with hucksters at a spring fair.If I get taken in the act is symbiotic not one sided.I am appalled less at their disgusting lack of integrity than I am at the people who swallow it whole as a matter of course.We might also mention that the notion of providing a service and being well recompensed for it whether you earn it or not is symptomatic of the capitalist system and unfortunately allows for the same system to be implemented in any service whatsoever. Such is the reason behind the phrase "Buyer beware".

jar Well,He must as this verse indicates.I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things." Isaiah 45:7If He creates evil then the actions taken by humans are a direct result of this. If the evil is the handiwork of god then the violence is related to him and he is the problem. No this makes even less sense.How then do you resolve this issue? If god is the one who sets up the condition for evil that we might choose our path to take then he is culpable in the violence as well as those who commit the physical acts.If he creates evil then suffering of all forms are a direct result of the choices he makes when he places these conditions down.
Either way I would not participate in the worship of a god who is not emotionally stable. I mean do we really want a deity about who has less control than a 4 year old?
What about free will? If he creates evil then we do not have a choice in the actions because they are obviously decided for us.What would be the state of men if there were no evil in the world? Satan tempts but god implements.This message has been edited by sidelined, 09-06-2004 09:54 AM

jar I have no problem with your beliefs however I do not see what the point is that the bible draws between christ's suffering and the way in which it eliminates sin.For sake of arguement. I am a child molesterer and have spent the past 45 years having my way with kids as young as 3 years old. I am caught by the authorities in my 60's. In the course of my incarceration I find god through jesus christ and I am forgiven of my sins. Let us say for sake of arguement that a dozen or so of those same kids I ravaged grow up to be molesterers themselves yet they do not get saved what is it about christ dying on a cross that makes all the evil I perpetrated both personally and through those I damaged who subsequently go on to do their own damage ok in god's eyes? What is it about those whom I molested who did not find christ that makes them spend time in hell for those sins I perpetrated upon them? Or do you believe that those who commit such heinous crimes are completely in the situation they find themselves in of their own accord and that my actions upon them do not matter.Would you not think that a loving god would correct those damages after the fact that such a thing not be commited again? After all if a man is forgiven of that sin should not the works of that sin be expunged?

jarI hope I am not raising your ire with these questions. I,being an atheiest, am not asking out of a need to convince myself of things but merely to clarify what it is that you profess because to be honest you are one of the more interesting of the people who claim to a christian life that I have met here or anywhere else for that matter.LOL and may I say to you that this little ditty should become your new signature because I find it priceless. Perhaps this is why I never joined in the christian faith as I suck at Monopoly.Hard to believe in a God when you always end up with Meditteranean and Baltic avenue.Anyway I do wish to clarify your point here. It has been my impression{wrongly perhaps?} that in talking to christians over the years that once you truly take christ into your heart all records of the transgressions in your life are erased and never brought to the fore again.But then what would it matter since I would assume that the lower decks of heaven must surely be a sweeter view than the penthouse of hell.LOL

Phatboy Are you saying that god was christ because I believe the new testament disputes that?

Phatboy Then why does Christ make this statement.

MTWI am sorry for being dense here but how do you differentiate between an act that is your own responsibilty and that which is an influence of satan without sounding like you are trying to excuse yourself from the responsibilty of your actions for which you may feel ashamed?How do you propose satan influences you?

Phatboy The problem is not mine,christ himself seperated himself from god by this statement. Jesus states that he is not good and that only god is so the words themselves as recorded by the bible are the point of contention not any opinion of mine. But there was nothing in the question that the person asked showing this to be his concern. The person wanted to know what needed to be done to recieve eternal life.He scolded the man for calling him good master and nothing in that statement seems to support what you are saying.

Phatboy In the verse he says nothing about whether he is a man or not.If he was only a man then are we humans then equal to Jesus in divine nature? Why or why not?If your last question in post #27 is directed at me {I couldn't tell since you posted it it as a reply to yourself LOL} I would be willing to do so but perhaps via e-mail would be better since we may end up bouncing back and forth too much to maintain a single topic line on this forum.

woundeddogWelcome to the forum friend. OK then why is such a fuss made over the suffering as if the pain of suffering was somewhow the payment for sin? There is very little record of the life of christ so such a statement is not backed by evidence to show whether or not sin was in his life or not. Yes but what is the morality of a god that requires sacrifice in order to make good on the debt of sin? Also why is the sacrifice necessary if all that is rquired is belief in him.The story could just end with him rising into the clouds after gathering all his followers together and telling them straight out that you only get to follow by believing in him?

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"Calling Atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair color."
--Don Hirschberg

Bump for woundeddog

dpardo But why is it that such a horror is acceptable to a god who is loving? This makes no sense on the face of it and the deeper I dwell on it the less sense it makes.If I were a christian my view would be not to allow christ into my life in full mind of the gift freely given since I would consider this a test by god to see who is worthy by rejecting those who would allow another{christ}to take the punishment that I rightly would deserve.This would be a far greater determination of the true character of a personal code of ethics of the person,in my view,than someone who takes the bait{accepts christ} so to speak in order to avoid the wrath of god by deflecting the responsibility to another.Again this is just my opinion and no reflection on those who are christian by whatever choice they made.

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"Calling Atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair color."
--Don Hirschberg