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Author | Topic: Ignorant Creationists vs. Knowledgeable Evolutionists | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
NosyNed Member Posts: 9004 From: Canada Joined: |
I do get cranky now and then.
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
There machines are designed to be complex from the get go, so they don't "become" complex at all. Many designers are involved over a period of time. They begin with rather simple machines and "become" more complex as improvements are added.
Each human brain originates from a single egg and a single sperm.[ Yes and what is observed is that all of what's needed for millions of human brains to emerge from the egg is in the egg, procreated from other humans. Beyond that, you have your ideology that mindless NS and RM did it and I have mine that God did it by design.
But Buz, people have used the principles of Natural Selection to solve engineering problems that human engineers could not figure out. They use genetic algorhithms. Nature, as in Natural Selection, is smarter than people. Mechanical engineering and life are apples and oranges. NS IS NOT MORE INTELLIGENT THAN PEOPLE.
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
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I do get cranky now and then. I am getting highly perturbed myself, Ned at your unevenly handed moderation here and am calling for someone who will be fair to intervene on my behalf. I've answered Shraf's questions and WILL NOT BE DRAGGED INTO WHATEVER DEBATE THREAD SHE TRIES TO DRAW ME INTO. I am participating within the thread topic and DO NOT WISH TO GO ON ANOTHER TOPIC.
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coffee_addict Member (Idle past 508 days) Posts: 3645 From: Indianapolis, IN Joined: |
Wouldn't it be funny if buz is made into an admin? It will be war of the admins
Hate world. Revenge soon!
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
Please answer this very simple question... if complexity requires design, who or what designed god? Infantile, I know, but to the point. Conversely, if god does not require a creator, why does anything else? Off topic. Something had to be forever existing in order to produce anything. I say it was God. You might say it was a particle of space as Rich Gore of National Geographic put it, or whatever you think it began from. We all remain at an impasse, for no eye witnesses where there, now, were they. It's disengenuous of you people to label us creos as "ignorant" for believing that mindless processes produced everything. Had someone labeled a thread "Ignorant Evolutionists," I doubt that it would have ever gotten out of Proposed New Topics. That's how unevenhanded things are in this town.
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
Wouldn't it be funny if buz is made into an admin? It will be war of the admins Yah, it'd be one against a pack. Not a chance! But, on the other hand, there's Moose who seems to oversee fairly justly. I'm not saying he'd help me here, but maybe referee some for the good of all as he often does. This message has been edited by buzsaw, 11-18-2004 10:52 PM
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AdminNosy Administrator Posts: 4754 From: Vancouver, BC, Canada Joined: |
Buz, your problem is you don't even understand that you haven't answered the questions.
You have your own intuitive picture of what complexity is. That intuition is approximately what most of us would agree is complexity. However, to use this concept in a real discussion of the issues around the evolutionary process you have to have a much more precise idea than just a rough intuition. Asking you the questions is one way to show you that you don't really have the kind of grasp of this concept that you need. It really is a difficult, complex thing to deal with. Once you start to get it nailed down a bit what happens is that it is possible to show that evolutionary processes can produce whatever you define as complexity. Until you do that no progress can be made in the discussion. You seem to think that the human brain is somehow so marvelous that it is separated from all of nature around it. However, it isn't. Our brains are a continuation of the brains of our relatives and ancestors. We are, in fact, beginnig to uncover the specific genetic differences that have formed our brains. So far, it looks like the steps are achievable through the understood evolutionary processes. You may think you are being discriminated against Buz. What is being discriminated against is the kind of fuzzy thinking that you believe proves something. It turns out that some of this stuff is difficult. If you don't like that then stay off the topics that are hard. This message has been edited by AdminNosy, 11-18-2004 10:53 PM
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AdminJar Inactive Member |
Because you really haven't answered the questions or supported any of your positions. It's a key point in the thread and the topic.
I believe that you believe you have supported an assertion, but so far you have introduced no evidence or even logic to back that up. If you want to just say that you don't believe evolution as a matter of faith, then that's fine. It's a matter of faith and so no one expects you to support it. But when you say the brain is too complex, you've moved into an area of judgement, testing, standards. Then it is valid to ask you to support your opinion. Some things you need to address would be:
Once you define the break point, you WILL be expected to show why it exists. How pierceful grows the hazy yon! How myrtle petaled thou! For spring hath sprung the cyclotron How high browse thou, brown cow? -- Churchy LaFemme, 1950
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
Buz, you remind me of a uneducated parent who makes up answers to questions they have no intention of thinking about or accurately answering for the purpose of shutting up their curious kid. SHUT TUP, BRAT!
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
But when you say the brain is too complex, you've moved into an area of judgement........ Oh, so creos have no right to make opinionated judgement statements about supernatural stuff?? Whattaheck forum is this? It's a CREATION VS EVOLUTION forum, last I heard.
Then it is valid to ask you to support your opinion. But YOU ALL ARE INSISTING THAT I SUPPORT IT ON THE BASIS OF THE EVOLUTION ARGUMENT. I'M NOT AN EVOLUTIONIST. DO YOU UNDERSTAND???? I AM NOT AN EVOLUTIONIST. I REPEAT, I AM NOT AN EVOLUTIONIST. CAN YOU SPELL CREATIIONIST FOR CRYIN OUT LOUD? BESIDES THIS IS NOT A SPECIFIC SCIENCE TOPIC. I REPEAT11 I AM NOT GOING TO GET INTO A SCIENTIFIC DEBATE ON THE SCIENCE OF THIS OFF TOPIC THING. I MADE SOME OPINIONATED STATEMENTS BASED ON MY IDEOLOGY AND YOU PEOPLE INSIST ON DOG PILING ON ME RATHER THAN SIMPLY ADDRESSING MY REMARKS AND MOVING ON. Some things you need to address would be:
could a simple brain such as an earthworm be the result of natural selection? could a slightly more complex brain like a crab or crayfish be the result of natural selection? then move along the chain until you reach a critter that you believe is too complex to be the result of natural selection. Once you define the break point, you WILL be expected to show why it exists. Why don't you follow the rules and go and start a topic on it if you want to discuss it at length so whoever WISHES to participate may. This message has been edited by buzsaw, 11-18-2004 11:08 PM
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AdminJar Inactive Member |
Let me see if I understand what you are saying.
You believe as a matter of faith that the human brain is too complex to have come about through Evolution and Natural Selection. You have no support for that belief, do not plan on supporting that belief and it is simply a personal opinion based on your religious interpretations. If that is correct then I believe I can support your taking that position. How pierceful grows the hazy yon! How myrtle petaled thou! For spring hath sprung the cyclotron How high browse thou, brown cow? -- Churchy LaFemme, 1950
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mikehager Member (Idle past 6497 days) Posts: 534 Joined: |
When you are challenged, it is suddenly off topic? Interesting. In any case, to proceed. Buz said:
Something had to be forever existing in order to produce anything. I say it was God. You might say it was a particle of space as Rich Gore of National Geographic put it, or whatever you think it began from. That is quite incorrect. To begin, I said nothing of the sort. I questioned your assertion that complexity requires a creator and that the creator is some kind of god. That proposition is inherently illogical and can only be defended by a special pleading, which you, like clockwork engaged in with the first sentence I quoted when you claimed that everything has to be created except god. It may be disengenuous to refer to creationists as ignorant for the reason you give but that wasn't what the originator of the thread said. The initial post was regarding the writer's observation that creationists tend to be relatively uninformed about the real science of evolution. I happen to agree with that. Buz, if you object so strongly to the term "ignorant creationist" you might try not being an exemplar of it.
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
Buz, your problem is you don't even understand that you haven't answered the questions. I have so answered the questions insomuch as is within reason without going into off topic debate.
You have your own intuitive picture of what complexity is. Call it anything you want, Ned to obfuscate my viewpoint, but NOBODY, INCLUDING YOU have directly addressed my statements so as to refute them as false.
That intuition is approximately what most of us would agree is complexity. However, to use this concept in a real discussion of the issues around the evolutionary process you have to have a much more precise idea than just a rough intuition. . Must I moderate moderators who are suppose to follow the guidelines? THIS IS NOT A DEBATE THREAD ON EVOLUTIONARY PROCESSES PERSE.
Asking you the questions is one way to show you that you don't really have the kind of grasp of this concept that you need. I have enough of a grasp on reality so as to render it impossible for you evos to refute my statements AS STATED. This's what has you all in a tizzy and whenever you can't directly refute YOU PILE MEANSPIRITEDLY ON THE POSTER SO AS TO BELITTLE.
You seem to think that the human brain is somehow so marvelous that it is separated from all of nature around it. However, it isn't. Our brains are a continuation of the brains of our relatives and ancestors. We are, in fact, beginnig to uncover the specific genetic differences that have formed our brains. So far, it looks like the steps are achievable through the understood evolutionary processes. There you go again, Mr Moderator, insisting that UNLESS I DEBATE ON YOUR EVOLUTIONARY IDEOLOGICAL TERMS, I'M IGNORANT AND OUT OF ORDER IN EXPRESSING WHAT I DO BELIEVE.
You may think you are being discriminated against Buz. What is being discriminated against is the kind of fuzzy thinking that you believe proves something. It turns out that some of this stuff is difficult. If you don't like that then stay off the topics that are hard. I think your thinking is fuzzy too sometimes, my friend. You have a difficult time understanding the possibility of the supernatural and what it is to debate on that basis. This topic IS NOT TOO HARD FOR ME. This topic is too hard for you to swallow, because it involves two ideologies and you are moderatingly doing your dead level best to disallow my viewpoint to be debated!! POOR MODERATING INDEED!! I need to cool off. So long.
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AdminNosy Administrator Posts: 4754 From: Vancouver, BC, Canada Joined: |
Every so often I think Buz will "get it". Then we go back to this sort of reaction.
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
Let me see if I understand what you are saying. You believe as a matter of faith that the human brain is too complex to have come about through Evolution and Natural Selection. You're obfuscating my argument. I implicated observations in my arguments.
You have no support for that belief, do not plan on supporting that belief and it is simply a personal opinion based on your religious interpretations. Please reread, carefully and thoughtfully, my statement as posted, with the exception that I have added the word "intelligent" in item 1. Notice my wording, "we observe in our daily lives........" in statement 1.Then notice my wording, "by the same token, scientists observe" in statement 2. Now you are trying to obfuscate my position into this "faith" thing so as to make me look silly, naieve and ignorant, aren't you, my friend? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1. What we observe in our daily lives is that complex things like computers, televisions, airplanes, etc is that in order to become complex to do what we want them to do, masterfully precisioned and designed by thousands of INTELLIGENTindividuals go into making them the complex machines which function to serve us as they do.
2. By the same token, scientists observe the brain, it is discovered that some 100 billion neurons, served by around a trillion service agents function with great precision to operate the nervous systems of each of billions of people. Each neuron interacts with at least 10 other neurons in the process. I believe the human mind is far more complex than anything man-made. No amount of co-operative human intelligence can make one from scratch. 3. The thread title is "Ignorant Creationists vs. Knowledgeable Evolutionists. It is the notion of some of us more ignorant Biblical fundamental creationists that no amount of time nor natural selection nor random mutation with out a smidget of intelligence would be able to produce such a precisely designed and super-highly complex wonder as the human brain, no matter how you cook up your math and rig up your theories. Do you mean to say that complexity can only come about with God's intervention? PRECISELY! If all the kings wise men, with all their combined trillions of neuronic brains working together can't make a brain, imo, mindless Mr. Natual Selection and his cohort, dead headed Ms Radom Mutation never did it. And don't forget also that the kings wise men have models to observe and work from/copy, where NS and RM, had nothing atol to begin to put it all together, not even anything whatsoever to motivate them to do it.
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