Terrorist or Freedom Fighter?

Now that Y. A. is dead, what are the thoughts on his legacy and does a palestinian state at peace with Israel stand a better chance of becoming a reality?

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The theory of evolution is a viable theory, absent the myth of macroevolution.
Once the myth of macroevolution is included, the viability of the theory of evolution vanishes as it slowly evolves into just another example of an implausible story,
nestled amongst the numerous fairytale's of our youth.-----DarkStar

To my way of thinking, a terrorist is anyone who purposely targets civilians or civilian entities as opposed to active military or legitimate military targets. Yassar Arafat was most surely a terrorist and not a freedom fighter. Perhaps now that he is dead, more moderate minds and hearts will emerge to lead the Palestinian people towards their goal, a true Palestinian state in which the people and their leaders join the world community of nations, determined to approach problems in a manner that is conducive to and in line with the behaviour that is to be expected from civilized peoples.I have responded in part to your "challenge" post. As time allows, I shall attempt to clarify my position, assuming that it is not fully clear or an acceptable enough response.This message has been edited by DarkStar, 11-18-2004 10:57 PM

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The theory of evolution is a viable theory, absent the myth of macroevolution.
Once the myth of macroevolution is included, the viability of the theory of evolution vanishes as it slowly evolves into just another example of an implausible story,
nestled amongst the numerous fairytale's of our youth.-----DarkStar

You have a legitimate point but I do not recall any accounts of the American Patriots attacking English civilians in an attempt to terrorize the civilian population of England or of having a desire to drive the English people into the sea, something Arabs have repeated as their goal over and over again. Violence and terrorism are not synonymous terms even though they may acheive similar results. I do not think of the men who fought in the revolutionary war as being terrorists even though many redcoats may have felt the terror of war.However, they were military and as such were legitimate targets. The main difference between the Palestinian terrorists and the Israeli military is that Israel is not targeting civilians specifically in order to acheive their goal of peace. If that were the case they could simply bomb the Palestinians out of existance or force them out of the West Bank and Gaza. Yassar Arafat and those of his ilk are not interested in peace with Israel or the establishment of a Palestinian state alongside Israel. If that had been their aim, Yassar Arafat would never have turned down the offer made by then Prime Minister Ehud Barak.Arafat's aim was the total destruction of Israel, and that simply will never happen again. Israel has become far too strong. So strong that even Saddam Hussein had little recourse when Israel bombed Iraqs' nuclear facility. There has never been, in the history of the world, a nation of Palestine and unless terrorism against Israeli civilians is ended there most likely never will be. Let us not forget that the Palestinians already have a country, namely Jordan.It is not that Palestinian and other Arab terrorists want to establish a nation of their own. Rather, they want all of Israels' land and would prefer to emulate the machinations of Adolf Hitler and simply exterminate the Jews as a people. As a Jew I feel quite qualified in saying, "Never Again"! If Palestinians truly want peace, they should follow the lead of other Arab nations that have made peace with Israel. Nothing short of that will help them in their cause.

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The theory of evolution is a viable theory, absent the myth of macroevolution.
Once the myth of macroevolution is included, the viability of the theory of evolution vanishes as it slowly evolves into just another example of an implausible story,
nestled amongst the numerous fairytale's of our youth.-----DarkStar

Let me begin by stating that I am not surprised that there would be anti-semites who would disagree with me or the facts of histroy. You are correct in some, although not all of what you say. Quite frankly it is laughable that you would accuse me of not knowing the history surrounding the establishment of the nation of Israel or the history of the Jews. I am quite sure that I am far more knowledgeable than you with regards to all the facts.To be fair, there are also Zionists who hate the fact that Arabs occupy any of the land that they see as given to them by god. Believe me when I say I am quite knowledgeable when it comes to the affairs of the Middle East, Arabs, & Jews but let us not forget the hatred Arabs have felt for the Jews, a hatred that existed long before Israel was reestablished as a nation. Theirs is a hatred that is nearly as old as time itself.

"The [1929] riots [in Palestine] were accompanied by militant Arab slogans such as... 'Palestine is our land and the Jews our dogs...' [and] brutal acts by Arabs...such as the killings in Hebron, where small children were tortured by their murderers before being murdered. ...the Jewish community in Palestine found itself caught up in a wave of violent disturbances that swept with a fury through Jewish settlements and neighborhoods throughout the length and breadth of the country. The danger now appeared to threaten the very survival of the entire Jewish community." --Shapira, A. 1992. Land and power. New York & Oxford: Oxford University Press, (p.174)

There are two documentary series that may help you with your somewhat, though not totally, uninformed view regarding all the facts.Israel: A Nation Is Born With Abba Eban, A Personal Witness & The 50 Years War: Israel and the Arabs Were there Zionist terrorists? Yes, and even Menahem Begin, (among others), who would eventually become the Israeli Prime Minister was at one time a wanted terrorist...

"...the Irgun, led by Menachem Beginlater to become prime minister of Israel in 1977who had a 2,000 price on his head, was responsible in the past for the liquidation of members of the police and the military whose activities have been judged especially worthy of Jewish resentment in Palestine.

Terrorism and the origins of IsraelPart 1 - World Socialist Web SiteOne could easily surmise that the way you feel towards Israel and the Jews exactly mirrors your feeling towards America, our military, and our attack on the Taliban and al-Qa'ida with the subsequent liberation of the Afghan people.The Palestinians had the opportunity for peace and the establishment of a state of their own in 1947 but they wanted nothing to do with the Jews or U.N. Resolution 181.

Resolution 181 - November 29, 1947
Partitioned Palestine into two States, one Arab, the other Jewish, with economic union and a special international regime for Jerusalem.
U.N. resolutions are often cited in Arab condemnation of Israel. However, if the Arabs had accepted U.N. Resolution 181 in November 1947, the Palestinians would have been living in an independent state alongside Israel for the last 54 years. U.N. Resolution 181 partitioned the British Mandate for Palestine into two states - one Jewish, one Arab. The Israelis accepted the resolution and declared independence in their allotted area on May 14, 1948. The Arabs rejected the resolution and attacked the Jewish state.

http://www.israelaustin.com/israelnow/unresolutions.aspAvoid any endeavors designed to teach me some fools brand of revisionist history. Research the true history of the Arabs, Palestinians, & Jews before attempting to discuss this issue with me further as I quantitatively refuse to repeatedly engage myself with misinformed or uninformed individuals.

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The theory of evolution is a viable theory, absent the myth of macroevolution.
Once the myth of macroevolution is included, the viability of the theory of evolution vanishes as it slowly evolves into just another example of an implausible story,
nestled amongst the numerous fairytale's of our youth.-----DarkStar

I see absolutely no references, links, or information sources in your post, aside from your suggestion that I look up the origin of the term lynch, hangings that were an unjust sentence to be sure, and is a possible reference to the Lynch Creek story.However, Curricular ResourcesPlease have the courtesy to provide all the links to your information sources. Also, please include references to any and all articles of the treaty that may pertain to your post. courtesy of Treaty of Paris (1783) - WikipediaYou may find the Full Text of the Treaty at
Page Not Found | Yale UniversityYou can get back to me when you have substantiated your claims with verification. Thanks.

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The theory of evolution is a viable theory, absent the myth of macroevolution.
Once the myth of macroevolution is included, the viability of the theory of evolution vanishes as it slowly evolves into just another example of an implausible story,
nestled amongst the numerous fairytale's of our youth.-----DarkStar

You will not find anywhere in my post where I called you an anti-semite.My exact quote was..... .....which is hardly the same as calling a specific individual, namely yourself, an anti-semite.When you assume that froggy knows what the hell he is talking about, you will undoubtedly make an ass out of yourself and froggy, though he needs little help in that regard!Learn to keep things in context and stay away from assumptions that are obviously incorrect, which make you both look extremely foolish. Silly boys!You can find the documentaries I mentioned at most libraries. As to the rest of your post, you seem to have a distorted view of several areas of history, which I hope to touch on at a later date, but before I sign off let me remind you that there never has been, in the history of the world, a nation of Palestine and most likely never will be.There is a nation of Israel, which has once again risen from the historical ashes of seemingly endless persecution by a never ending supply of anti-semites and anti-zionists. That is history and truth, no matter how one tries to colour it, or whether they choose to hold high their banner of anti-semitism or anti-zionism. They are one in the same to many who have suffered from their hatred, as they are all viewed as being anti-Jew, despite the lies they may speak when they deny historical facts.Zionism is a direct result of anti-semitism. That too is history, and truth, regardless of continued efforts by revisionists who will simply manufacture any reason to justify their endless hatred and persecution the Jews, and the Nation of Israel. The combined arms and armies of no less than seven Arab states could not destroy tiny Israel or the Jews, despite the Arabs having an overwhelming superiority in both arms and soldiers.Each time Israel had to go to war, the Arabs lost more lives and more land, only to go crying to the U.N. in an attempt to force Israel to give back land she had rightfully taken in the war. Each time, Israel gave some of the conquered land back, though not all, in an attempt to secure her borders against future violations of her sovereignty. What other victor in wars has been willing to do this again and again and again?But this was not good enough. The Arabs wanted everything they had lost as well as the land given to us as a result of U.N. Resolution 181. All of the yellow on the following map is Arab land while the blue is Israel..... .....and yet you, and others like you would deny us even this small sliver of land, a land that has been taken from us again and again. A land in which the decendants of Jacob have continuously lived long before anyone ever heard this modern term Palestine,(which is Philistia}, or these so-called Palestinians, (which would in actuality make them Philistines), and as you should know, Palestine, (Philistia), isn't even an Arabic term but is a Roman, (latin), term. http://www.palestinefacts.org/...y_palestine_name_origin.phpEven when we Jews did not have a nation to call our own we lived in this ancient and sacred land. The Arabs have taken enough land. Israel is Israel once again and it shall remain so despite what the haters of the Jews think they can do to us, our land, or our heritage. The land was taken from us and even without the British mandate we would have eventually taken our ancient land back.That you would argue against the true facts of history while voicing your support for a people that do not even know who they really are, shows me how well your signature slogan, "What a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away", fits in with your errant thought process. This wise man will not even attempt to further point out how utterly distorted your world view truly is. Philistia is dead.

Long Live Judah! Long Live Israel! Long Live Zion!

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The theory of evolution is a viable theory, absent the myth of macroevolution.
Once the myth of macroevolution is included, the viability of the theory of evolution vanishes as it slowly evolves into just another example of an implausible story,
nestled amongst the numerous fairytale's of our youth.-----DarkStar

I didn't think you would support your assertions. I was right. You are in violation of forum guidelines. Learn to follow forum guidelines like everyone else. You can now join froggy.

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The theory of evolution is a viable theory, absent the myth of macroevolution.
Once the myth of macroevolution is included, the viability of the theory of evolution vanishes as it slowly evolves into just another example of an implausible story,
nestled amongst the numerous fairytale's of our youth.-----DarkStar

Let me attempt to decipher your ramblings as best I can. That is your personal opinion. However, no personal opinion can be considered strong enough, or legitimate enough to make something a reality by fiat. A group of people suddenly announced their intent to form what we now know as the U.S.A. and so once again your argument has no base on which to stand. That is undoubtedly one of the dumbest statements I have heard to date. It is an offer which you are not authorized to make, one which you do not have the power to sustain by granting your personal permission, and one which would never be allowed outside normal immigration procedures, neither by the US or the Netherlands.You have made it quite obvious by your own claim of being an anti-zionist that it is you who is a racist. Even the U.N. recinded its' claim that Zionism was racism. Many world leaders have condemned those who, like you, would equate Zionism with racism. Apparently you do not have the courage, or the character, to do the same. You are a closet racist.Without the help of other nations, France for one, the United States of America would not exist right now. Oh really! Tell that to all of the Arab nations that collectively got their asses thoroughly kicked when they tried to wipe Israel off the map before the ink had even dried on Israels' official declaration of statehood. Oh, you mean like Judaea, Samaria, Philistia, Ammon, Moab, Edom, Phoenicia, Bashan, Gilead, Galilee, etc. It has already been pointed out to you that these so-called Palestinians have nothing to do with, historically or genetically, those who lived in ancient Philistia, from which the name Palestine is derived. You obviously do not know your history or your geography.You are a self admitted anti-zionist. I can now say without doubt that you are also an anti-semite, a racist. People like you disgust me. You will now be moved to the bin of the opprobrious posters where you can keep company with froggy and others who are not worth the time it takes to spit. Expect no further response from me.

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The theory of evolution is a viable theory, absent the myth of macroevolution.
Once the myth of macroevolution is included, the viability of the theory of evolution vanishes as it slowly evolves into just another example of an implausible story,
nestled amongst the numerous fairytale's of our youth.-----DarkStar

As I noted in a previous post, Article 5 was never implemented. Had you bothered to actually read my entire post or follow the links, you would have understood that.The time has come for you to be moved to the bin of opprobrious posters where you can enjoy the company of froggy, holmes, and others who are not worth the time it takes to spit. Expect no further response from me.

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The theory of evolution is a viable theory, absent the myth of macroevolution.
Once the myth of macroevolution is included, the viability of the theory of evolution vanishes as it slowly evolves into just another example of an implausible story,
nestled amongst the numerous fairytale's of our youth.-----DarkStar

Oh, really? (color added for emphasis) Considering that you either didn't notice his insults, or didn't feel they were insults, I do not believe that having you look at any altercations would be productive. They remain in the bin.

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The theory of evolution is a viable theory, absent the myth of macroevolution.
Once the myth of macroevolution is included, the viability of the theory of evolution vanishes as it slowly evolves into just another example of an implausible story,
nestled amongst the numerous fairytale's of our youth.-----DarkStar

There are a number of items in your post which I must dismiss as being,IMHO, the result of irrational thinking. One of the things in your post that caught my eye is the following quote. You may choose to refer to yourself as a palestinian but have you had DNA tests to determine this or are you just another confused individual who does not understand the term "palestine" as being a modern reference to ancient Philistia, an area called the "Philistine Pentapolis" which was comprised of the cities of Ashkelon, Ashdod, Ekron, Gath, and Gaza, and was so named for the ancient Philistines who occupied that area?Somehow I doubt that you are, as you claim, "a Palestinian by blood" as that would most likely mean you are of European or Greek descent, though you may indeed be so but are more likely an Arab by blood. Perhaps you need to know the answers to the following questions and then you could re-examine your position on what bloodline you should be laying claim to. Go directly to yahoodi.com is for sale or you can go to yahoodi.com is for sale for the answers to these and many other questions regarding a large number of subjects including.....The Arabs, Arabism, Zionism, Anti-Zionism, Anti-semitism, Occupation, Islam, Hamas, Jihad, Intifadas, Terrorism , Demographics, Intolerance, War, Peace, Psychology, Jewish Sins, Minorities, Legacy, Genocide, Bigotry, Racism, Bias, Media Bias, Oppression, The Stockholm Syndrome, History & Geography. fixed coding to keep page width normal - The QueenThis message has been edited by AdminAsgara, 12-03-2004 11:35 PM

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The theory of evolution is a viable theory, absent the myth of macroevolution.
Once the myth of macroevolution is included, the viability of the theory of evolution vanishes as it slowly evolves into just another example of an implausible story,
nestled amongst the numerous fairytale's of our youth.-----DarkStar

There is no need to be so sensitive. It is possible that your "bloodline" is from both Arab and European, I have no way of knowing and I really could not care less. My point was that you claimed that you are Palestinian by "blood", something you could not possibly know for certain without a DNA test.I am an American, but I do not claim to be an American by blood as there is no such thing. Not even those who we now refer to as "Native American" are American by blood. Every single individual living on this continent is an immigrant, only the period of time with regards to their migration separates us. Some are American by birth, some by choice, and some by conquest.....but none are so by blood.Conquest is nothing new to mankind and for someone to claim that because they choose to call themselves Palestinians gives them the unquestionable right to a certain piece of land is to lend support the argument that because one calls oneself an Israeli or a Jew that they have the unquestionable right to the land of their ancestors.The Arabs were not in control of Palestine before Israel was reborn, the Brits were, and the Arabs begged the Brits not to let any more Jews into the land, for fear of becoming a minority, a notion that is laughable. Jews who dwelt in that land were also referred to as Palestinians but they did not adopt this title. They knew they were Jews. In fact, the Arabs who also dwelt in that land did not immediately adopt this title either, it is a title that was, in large extent, forced upon them. They knew they were Arabs.If you choose to call yourself a Palestinian that is your choice but do not expect people to buy into the lie that somehow Palestine is your ancient homeland or that anyone who calls themself a Palestinian has some god given right to the land. Israel can make that claim based upon their ancient writings, but the reality is, the land, any land, belongs to those who presently control it.Several nationalities have controlled the land over the millennia, including the Jews who control it once again. I would give no more credence to those calling themselves Palestinians crying out "the land belongs to us" than I would to Mexicans crying out "the land belongs to us" when referring to the Southwest U.S.A., and don't try to use the argument that the Mexicans no longer inhabit that land. I live in that land and believe me, they are a large part of the population, but they live in America, not Mexico.At the moment, Americans control what is now known as the U.S.A. but a thousand years from now this may not be the case. In two thousand years they may control it again, just as Jews once again control the land of Israel. The Arabs had the opportunity for a Palestinian nation, something that has never existed in the history of mankind, but because their nation would exist next to a Jewish nation they chose war instead. They continue to suffer the consequences of that choice.If and when they choose to join the other nations of the 21st century and choose peace with their Israeli neighbors I will applaud them. Until that time, they must bear the burden, and the full responsibility, of their children dying needlessly while they continue to engage in a war that cannot be won through terrorist attacks on civilians. Neither do I buy into the argument that "there are Arab children with stones being killed by Israeli soldiers with guns." One need only be hit in the head with a stone to understand that it too can be a lethal weapon. I have heard that a man named Goliath learned this the hard way, and though it was actually a sword that separated him from his head, it was a mere stone that felled him.The only hope for peace is for the Arabs to make peace with Israel, accepting them as their neighbor. Until that happens Arab children will continue to die needlessly and Arab adults will have no one to blame but themselves. It is a sad truth but a truth nonetheless. If I had to choose between sharing land while making peace with an enemy or risk the lives of my children, the choice is a no-brainer. I would choose peace everytime.My children are far more important to me that any piece of land that has changed hands over and over and over again. Too bad the Arabs in power are not so level headed. If they truly cared about their Arabs brothers and sisters, they could have enjoyed the benefits of peace since 1948 instead of the senseless path of war and violence that they chose to embark upon. What has it gotten them? Heartache, misery, and poverty.....a poverty that could have been avoided had Yassar Arafat not stolen hundreds of millions of dollars from them.Yassar Arafat was no leader. He was a thief and a murderer who did not care for the welfare the Arabs he claimed to support. All he cared about was the destruction of Israel. Well Yasser is dead and Israel still lives. Perhaps now the reality of Israel will bring true leadership to the PLO and peace with Israel can also become a reality. I have my hopes but until the Arabs elect a leader who truly seeks peace I predict several more decades of needless suffering and death on both sides.

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The theory of evolution is a viable theory, absent the myth of macroevolution.
Once the myth of macroevolution is included, the viability of the theory of evolution vanishes as it slowly evolves into just another example of an implausible story,
nestled amongst the numerous fairytale's of our youth.-----DarkStar