Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 59 (9164 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,929 Year: 4,186/9,624 Month: 1,057/974 Week: 16/368 Day: 16/11 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Biological Reduction and Free Will
Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 4 of 31 (170367)
12-21-2004 9:37 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Ben!
12-21-2004 5:12 AM


bencip19 writes:
Can science really resolve the notion of free will with that of the biological reduction of "self" ?
As for my own position, I think the answer is, there is no resolving them; free will is only apparent.
One way of resolving free will with "the biological reduction of "self"" might be that not only free will, but also the notion of self is only apparent (i.e. an illusion). That way, there is no need for a correlation between the two.
bencip19 writes:
There is one [thought] in particular I thought I should mention--the position [...] that believes that non-determinism in quantum mechanics somehow saves the notion of free will.
There's a problem with that line of thinking. It is this: to have free will necessitates having control over the processes that constitute, or cause, a willed event.
Determinism, on the one hand, obviously precludes free will, in that it prescribes that every effect must have a cause, and thus implies that the chain of causes and effect extends infinitely into the past, or at least as far back as before our own existence. Since we cannot have control over causes that occur before we exist, we cannot possibly have control, in a deterministic universe, over subsequent causes and effects in the chain leading up to the final cause (in the everyday sense of the word 'final', not to be confused with the aristotelian notion of 'final cause') of a willed event.
The non-determinacy of quantum mechanics, on the other hand, offers no solace because a non-determined event cannot, by definition, be controlled by anything. So, if quantum mechanical principles lie at the root of processes that cause willed events, we still cannot have control over those processes, and free will remains an elusive concept.
This message has been edited by Parasomnium, 12-22-2004 05:52 AM

We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further. - Richard Dawkins

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Ben!, posted 12-21-2004 5:12 AM Ben! has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Parasomnium, posted 12-27-2004 4:25 PM Parasomnium has not replied

  
Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 9 of 31 (171282)
12-24-2004 4:28 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by contracycle
12-21-2004 10:42 AM


contracycle writes:
Why does it matter whether we have free will or not? [...] It is not meaningful in the human sphere - our law courts are already able to distinguish between intentional homicide and accidental manslaughter [...]
If free will does not exist, then 'intentional homicide' isn't intentional at all, it just feels that way. It would be unfair to sentence someone who had no other choice than to 'intentionally' kill somebody. But then again, the judge would have no choice either in being unfair. Again, it would just feel that way.
contracycle writes:
Any concerns we may have had about "determinism" have been obviated by quantum uncertainty.
Not so, see Message 4
This message has been edited by Parasomnium, 12-24-2004 04:36 AM

We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further. - Richard Dawkins

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by contracycle, posted 12-21-2004 10:42 AM contracycle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by contracycle, posted 12-28-2004 1:20 PM Parasomnium has not replied
 Message 30 by contracycle, posted 12-28-2004 1:22 PM Parasomnium has replied

  
Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 26 of 31 (171760)
12-27-2004 4:25 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Parasomnium
12-21-2004 9:37 AM


Bumping for Ben
Any thoughts lately on quantum uncertainty? Could you have a look at my message no. 4, if you're still interested?

We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further. - Richard Dawkins

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Parasomnium, posted 12-21-2004 9:37 AM Parasomnium has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Ben!, posted 12-27-2004 5:04 PM Parasomnium has replied

  
Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 28 of 31 (171880)
12-28-2004 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Ben!
12-27-2004 5:04 PM


Re: Bumping for Ben
Ben! writes:
what I meant to say is, PLEASE DON'T argue for quantum determinacy for saving free will; I've heard that one and it does nothing for me.
On re-reading your post I see that I missed that subtle cue. But I'm glad we agree.
Ben! writes:
[...] there's no free will, but there's every reason to ACT like there is one. In fact, I would argue (like you, I would suspect) that the APPEARANCE of free will (and acting accordingly) is important in survival.
But if there is no free will, you cannot choose to act as if there is. You either survive, or you don't, but you have no active part in deciding it. All you can do is rationalize your actions - or rather, what happened to you - in retrospect, in such a way as to seem to have originated from free will. And now it's time for me to add something. I'm quoting myself now:
Parasomnium writes:
[...] free will is an aspect of our experience of being in the world. As such, it's not independent of our consciousness. Instead, it's a quale, like the experience of the redness of a rose, or the feeling of being the subject of motherly love. Free will is what it's like for a conscious being to be one of the causative factors in a complex process
I said this here: Message 12

We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further. - Richard Dawkins

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Ben!, posted 12-27-2004 5:04 PM Ben! has not replied

  
Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 31 of 31 (172051)
12-29-2004 5:07 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by contracycle
12-28-2004 1:22 PM


contracycle writes:
Did you actually read what I wrote?
I apologize. It seems that I have misinterpreted what you said, and have replied too hastily.
contracycle writes:
the language of "intention, inititiation, execution" is a minefield of miscommunication.
Please explain what you mean. What meaning of the word 'intentional' do you have in mind? And what do 'initiation' and 'execution' have to do with it?

We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further. - Richard Dawkins

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by contracycle, posted 12-28-2004 1:22 PM contracycle has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024