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Author | Topic: Atheist morality | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Trae Member (Idle past 4336 days) Posts: 442 From: Fremont, CA, USA Joined: |
Understood.
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kongstad Member (Idle past 2899 days) Posts: 175 From: Copenhagen, Denmark Joined: |
quote: Actually according to some studies about 25% of all males experience attraction to children:
quote:Pedophilia - Wikipedia /Soren
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Phat Member Posts: 18349 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
DHA writes: Just the diversion. You represent atheists, right DHA? We are talking about morality: moral conduct or virtue. Leaving the thread, or the diversion? virtue \ver-chu\ n 1 : conformity to a standard of right : morality 2 : a particular moral excellence 3 : manly strength or courage : valor 4 : a commendable quality : merit whitestone journal.com writes: According to Webster, ethics is "the science of moral duty." He further describes it as "the science of ideal human character." The word in Greek means "dwelling" or "stall," as in a safe place to live (our word "morals" comes from the Latin word for ethics). The implication is that humans depend on right choices for security. For a Christian, and indeed for many non-Christians, Jesus Christ is the only perfectly ethical person. He is the perfect man, always making right choices, and to believe him to be flawed is to abandon Christianity completely. Upon this fact and foundation, we have a second belief that we are to allow God to transform us into an image of His Son, Jesus. Jesus calls us to follow him, become his disciples and inherit eternal life. If Jesus is the ideal human being, and we are called to imitate him, then we are called to an ethical life. What is the Basis for Christian Ethics?Christian ideas of right and wrong originate in revealed truth, i.e. they stem from what God has taught us through Jesus and the prophets and Apostles. This primarily means the Bible for some, although as Catholics we accept as equally true the teachings of the Apostles handed down through the bishops and known as Tradition. For both the Bible and Tradition, we believe we must obey because the teachings come from God, not because they are wise, will ensure a long life or prosperity. Christian ethics may be contrasted with Utilitarianism, whose adherents simply "do what works." Utilitarian ethics allowed the Holocaust, slavery, and totalitarian Communism. Because Christians do not believe humans made themselves or occurred "naturally," we do not believe we are free to do whatever suits us. Because God is the author of life, He also determines the standards of behavior for those members of His creation with free will. To DHA and others who profess no such beliefs, what do you see as the basis for morality? Is morality a learned trait? Is it a biologically evolving survival mechanism? My question to you is this: If we as a species are evolving, are we getting any better morally than we were 2000 years ago? Or are we becoming less vulgar and more efficient at killing? Consider:A.P. writes:
Good Chimps? Is there a type of morality for chimps?
Chimps Attack, Tear Off Man's NoseTwo Of The Chimps Were Shot And Killed Mar 4, 2005 4:42 pm US/Eastern CALIENTE, Calif. (AP) A couple's visit to the chimpanzee they were forced to relinquish to an animal sanctuary turned tragic when two other chimps attacked the husband, critically wounding him before the animals were shot to death in mid-assault.Dr. Maureen Martin, of Kern Medical Center, told KGET-TV of Bakersfield that the chimpanzees chewed most of Davis' face off and that he would require extensive surgery in an attempt to reattach his nose.Chealander told The Bakersfield Californian that besides the damage to his face, Davis had his testicles and foot mauled off. Buddy, a 16-year-old male chimp, initiated the attack and after he was shot, Ollie, a 13-year-old male, grabbed the gravely injured man and dragged him down the road, according to Chealander.A woman who said she was a friend of the Brauers and was leaving the sanctuary Friday morning told an Associated Press reporter that the couple is distraught. She refused to give her name. "These are good chimps," the woman said. "This is just devastating."
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tsig Member (Idle past 2938 days) Posts: 738 From: USA Joined: |
You represent atheists, right DHA? Nope. I lost the election, Dan Carrol is, I think, the current athiest pope. LOL Have to go to work, but will have a more detailed answer to your interesting post later. Thanks. Just couln't resist.
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pink sasquatch Member (Idle past 6052 days) Posts: 1567 Joined: |
My question to you is this: If we as a species are evolving, are we getting any better morally than we were 2000 years ago? Only if "getting better morally" than humans are now would have a survival/reproduction benefit. Evolution doesn't have a direction towards "better", only "more fit" - if improved morality doesn't improve our fitness, then it won't improve.
Good Chimps? Is there a type of morality for chimps? Frans de Waal, a leading primatologist, seems to think so. Suggested reading: Good Natured: The Origins of Right and Wrong in Humans and Other Animals
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satrekker Inactive Member |
The "spritual awareness" that you are not aware of having is your conscience.
At the risk of getting a bit off topic, I would like to mention a few things while being brief about it: 1. I am a Christian 2. A non-Christian (I prefer pre-Christian) can be of solid character and perform many righteous acts or good works; however, your good works will never get you to heaven. The bible teaches that righteousness is accounted to one by faith in Jesus Christ alone. (Man's sin separated him from God, and God, wanting to restore man to himself, was required to clear the holiness of His character by requiring punishment for sin. He accomplished this through the atonement of the cross, and as such, God himself determined the manner in which we are to be restored. The method of redemption was never ours to decide (that is why our righteous acts will never "earn" our way into heaven), just as a convicted criminal does not does not have the authority to determine the nature of his punishment nor the manner in which it must be satisfied. 3. Faith in Jesus Christ is not just an intellectual assent to a creed, and... 4. Christianity is not a life insurance policy where one confesses by mouth in a church that Jesus is your savior and then you go right back to doing what you always did. 5. If your theology is not producing fruit in your life, then what good is it to you? How can those who have been touched by the power of God in Jesus Christ go about their lives day after day, week after week, year after year, with little or no discernable change to those around them? The answer is - They can't! The bible is very clear about this. Empty, powerless religion brings a reproach upon the name of Jesus, and it is all around us. The church may be blind to it, but the world isn't and most people here know what I'm talking about. You can see it, whether you're saved or not. However, all of the lies, hypocrisy, and deceit of man will never bring the truth of God in Christ Jesus to no effect. This message has been edited by satrekker, 04-02-2005 02:05 AM
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tsig Member (Idle past 2938 days) Posts: 738 From: USA Joined: |
If your theology is not producing fruit in your life, then what good is it to you? Athiests have no theology.
A non-Christian (I prefer pre-Christian) post-christian actally.
However, all of the lies, hypocrisy, and deceit of man will never bring the truth of God in Christ Jesus to no effect. Can't imagine how it could, God being infinite and all.
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
1. I am a Christian So am I. Texan too by GOD! I apologize for mentioning that last, I feel bad when I force others, even unconciously, to come to the realization they are NOT Texans.
2. A non-Christian (I prefer pre-Christian) can be of solid character and perform many righteous acts or good works; however, your good works will never get you to heaven. ...Blah blah blah ... Nonsense. Not a subject for this thread but I'll be happy to once again discuss why that's totally false in yet another thread on yet again that same worn topic. Points 3,4 & 5 are but more of the same. There is nothing that says an Atheist is immoral. They don't believe in Heaven or Hell so even bring such things up is pointless. However, unlike many Christians, most Atheists are truly committed to reason and evidence. If they were shown absolute proof of the existence of GOD by coming face to face with the evidence, GOD herself, they would immediately admit their error and change their belief. That is in stark contrast to so many Christians who when faced with proof that the Bible is NOT to be taken literally, take their fingers out of their collective butts and stick them in their collective ears. In that major regard Atheists generally are far more honest than Christians. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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satrekker Inactive Member |
Nonsense. Not a subject for this thread but I'll be happy to once again discuss why that's totally false in yet another thread on yet again that same worn topic. I am assuming you were replying to my use of "pre-Christian." That should have been left out. I was trying to convey a sense of my hopefulness for others, but I don't think it came across and was extraneous.
1. However, unlike many Christians, most Atheists are truly committed to reason and evidence. Really? Can you support this with evidence, your personal experience and generalizations aside?
If they were shown absolute proof of the existence of GOD by coming face to face with the evidence, GOD herself, they would immediately admit their error and change their belief. Do you believe that it is possible to compile absolute proof as to the existence or non-existence of God? If not, do you believe that this is an appropriate example to support your prior assertion?
That is in stark contrast to so many Christians who when faced with proof that the Bible is NOT to be taken literally, take their fingers out of their collective butts and stick them in their collective ears. Please, point me in the direction of this proof. I would like to read it.
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
I am assuming you were replying to my use of "pre-Christian." That should have been left out. I was trying to convey a sense of my hopefulness for others, but I don't think it came across and was extraneous. Nope, that wasn't what I was refering to at all. I simply think it's far more likely that the average Atheist will be saved and go to heaven than the average Christian.
Really? Can you support this with evidence, your personal experience and generalizations aside? That they are more committed to reason? Certainly. Show me an Atheistic YEC?
Do you believe that it is possible to compile absolute proof as to the existence or non-existence of God? If not, do you believe that this is an appropriate example to support your prior assertion? Only once, when you die. Either the IPU will greet you or not. But if an Atheist died and was greeted by the IPU, he or she would certain accept the fact of existence of the IPU.
Please, point me in the direction of this proof. I would like to read it. That's not an appropriate subject for this thread but this board is filled with discussions on just that subject. Please come join one and be informed. Or if you want the short course, read Genesis and Exodus for more than sufficient proof. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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satrekker Inactive Member |
That they are more committed to reason? Certainly. Show me an Atheistic YEC? I'll ask yet again. Where is your proof?
That's not an appropriate subject for this thread but this board is filled with discussions on just that subject. Please come join one and be informed. Or if you want the short course, read Genesis and Exodus for more than sufficient proof. I didn't ask to begin a discussion on the topic. I only requested that you point out to me where I can find this proof, but instead of providing the requested information you pointed me to Genesis and Exodus. I think that you should examine your use of the word "proof."
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
I didn't ask to begin a discussion on the topic. I only requested that you point out to me where I can find this proof, but instead of providing the requested information you pointed me to Genesis and Exodus. I think that you should examine your use of the word "proof." LOL Well come on over to one of the discussions for additional proof but Genesis and Exodus are certainly proof enough. Start in "The Bible: Accuracy and Inerrancy" and in "Faith and Belief" then wander down to "Geology and the Great Flood". Love to have you join us there.
I'll ask yet again. Where is your proof? The fact that there are no Atheistic YECs IS proof. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Arachnophilia writes: the things jesus taught are good advice, whether or not you believe he is the son of god. one could also see him as an enlightened individual. ever see the Jefferson Bible?The Jefferson Bible we are limited in our ability to understand by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
The fact that there are no Atheistic YECs IS proof. mentioning this point to a YEC is either meaningless or viewed as evidence of atheists as being less reasonable.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Let me point out that being bound by {rational behavior and the ethics and morality that can be logically derived from first principles and the rule of universality} is not limited to atheists, but also includes agnostics and deists and some theists, before getting into dictatorial religions that claim to have a code.
Man is a social animal, and morality is the basis for his interaction with other people. Anything a person does off by himself that has absolutely no effect on any other person is neither moral nor immoral but amoral. "Treat others as you would like to be treated" is derived from first principles, it is a pact (a "Social Contract" as Rousseau said), that I won't hurt you because I don't want to be hurt, and we can agree to mutual co-existence. Different forms of this principle are found in all cultures, as it is universally applicable to the social condition. See Variations on the familiar "Golden Rule" (click) This brings us to universality -- whatever is right (or wrong) in one situation is right (or wrong) in any relevantly similar situation -- from last link:
Universalizability as described above is a basic logical feature of all moral discourse. That is, in making a distinctively moral judgment, you commit yourself to its universalizability. If in making a judgment you refuse to recognize its universalizability, then you are actually refusing to make a moral judgment. Atheists, agnostics, deists and many theists will understand this as part of their core beliefs, and thus they are more likely to think and actually behave in a moral and ethical manner than someone looking for a cookbook recipe to morality and that doesn't understand the basis of true moral behavior. This "cookbook" type of thinking has lead to the belief in some that it is morally okay to kill homosexuals and blacks and Indians and .... the list is extensive and unforgiving in its morally justified indictment of this kind of thinking. "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbors wife" is another example of a cookbook rule that is not universalizable. Let's see if this kicks your topic into high gear eh? Enjoy. we are limited in our ability to understand by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}
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