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Author | Topic: Atheist morality | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
DHA writes:
Would you say that morality is also what I watch each day? What I think about each day? Morality is not a belief, but what we do each day.Even what I joke about? Ben writes:
By other honest and open people, naturally.
But when I'm honest and open, I tend to get taken advantage of.Ben writes: I truly believe this is the difference between "explicit" knowledge and "implicit" knowledge. Morality is not a set of rules. Socrates was wrong to judge that those who could not state what morality and judgement is didn't "know" what it is. I agree with you. True morality is not based on rules. It is an implicit system. It is not a belief, but what we do. morality= moral conduct : virtueimplicit=1 : understood though not directly stated or expressed : implied; also : potential 2 : complete, unquestioning, absolute <~ faith> implicitly adv explicit= clearly and precisely expressed explicitly adv explicitness My belief is that I will never be as moral as I believe the standard is. The standard is Christ, and I will never be Christ. I can choose to allow Christ to influence me internally, hopefully causing my external behavior to come into line. Dan writes:
Whew! I repent for having declared that I stay around this board due to your humor, Dan. Back to morality. It is our actions. How do you make your decisions regarding right and wrong if you ain't got no Daddy? You may be a big boy, now..but you are responsible for what you know. Often, Mr. Silly Sausage wants to do things that Mr. Carroll knows not to do. Morality doesn't come from our actions in life; it's an arbitrary set of rules handed down from an ethereal father figure. If you're ever tempted to think that humans have the capacity to make their own decisions regarding right and wrong, please remember my little tale... before it's too late.Dan writes: I never knew that you used to believe in Him, Dan. I'm rather upset by all this, to be sure. But when I stopped believing in God, what else could have happened?Should the Comedian talk to the girl scouts or should the wannabe Pastor? What we really need is a funny Pastor who likes overpriced cookies! But it all gets back to what we do. My addendum is that what we think about and watch can influence what we do. Or did the kid that went on a rampage in Minnesota watch Pat Boone videos every day? This message has been edited by Phatboy, 03-24-2005 04:31 AM
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
There are extremists and deluded psychotics in every subculture.
I will admit that right wing fanatics are some of the worst nutjobs, and if a kid is repressed and also mentally ill, he/she could explode! There is a spiritual war within the collective psyche of humanity. Yes, that is my belief statement, and that statement is enough for people to watch ME warily! What is so safe about human derived logic, however? You ARE aware that psychiatrists and psychologists (human trained and educated) have the highest suicide rates of any profession. Higher than clergy, for sure. This message has been edited by Phatboy, 03-24-2005 04:37 AM
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
I did look into the data. My stat was given to me years ago in college by one of my professors and I had never bothered to validate it. Apparantly, there is no clear data out there, but other professions with access to firearms have greater rates than do shrinks.
http://mypage.iusb.edu/~jmcintos/usa2002summary.htm Concerning the molestation, do you think that molesters seek employment in jobs with easy access to children? Hence clergy/teacher/coach? I can't imagine genuine clergy turning into molesters in large number...apparantly the molesters were posing as clergy. Comments?
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
PS writes: I saw a link that mentioned security guards and armed guards in general having higher risks. I did not find any conclusive listed data. The verdict is inconclusive.
Was your link supposed to have occupational data? I saw that firearms where the #1 method of suicide, but nothing about professions with access to firearms. PS writes: While I know that happily married couples are usually the best role models and usually the best adjusted youth pastors, I also have read where celibacy itself is not the issue. If this were the case, single counselors could use other outlets for sexual tension that would not comprimise their profession. Interestingly enough, most Christian sources on the issue of sexual sin seem to indicate that methods of release/relief such as internet porn, for example, tend to increase tension rather than alleviate it. For example, I wonder about the role of celibacy as well, especially since the majority of reported clergy-who-molest are Catholic priests. That is, a simple reading of the numbers would suggest that more children are molested by celibate clergy than by non-celibate clergy. Similarly, there are instances of some molestors who are married.The solution, it seems, is to be able to monitor and pinpoint those who are good for and with children vs those who are predatory and who spend months grooming their victims. Accountability and familiarity go a long way, but some molestors are good friends with the families of the victims. It is similar to identifying the next school shooter.ome signs can be recognized, but so many kids have those signs. I myself could be profiled as a potential molester, only because I am observed to be unmarried, I have an affinity for teenage youth, and I am very good at talking with them. What am I supposed to do? Go get married when I have no desire to do so just so I can look good in the eyes of the church? I think not. Let them talk about me!
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
holmes writes: I agree that cops and clergy more likely go bad on the job, rather than enter the profession with ulterior motives. Back in the "day", when homosexuality was frowned upon more than it is now, many young men who were gay became clergy due to good old Catholic guilt. Later, being celibate and being attracted to the 12-14 year old boys who were altar boys and whatnot, they had a lot of close encounters with these boys. Their inner passions were arousedmuch as a heterosexual male who is a high school girls volleyball coach would be tempted. Indeed, in Denver we recently had a case of a coach who had untold sexual encounters with his high school team. His defense? He thought that they were eighteen! The girls actually thought that they loved him and so defended him until the end. Such a loss of innocence! He was sentenced 11 years to life. One key point in most Priest molestations is that the victims are not children as much as they are young men and boys who are at the age when the hormones kick in. Add a lonely Priest who is a closeted homosexual to the mix and you often have incidents. The kids that I work with can be annoying, but I don't let it bother me. Boys will often exhibit age appropriate hormonal actions that would make anyone edgy. The girls are worse. In my professional volunteer role, I am careful never to be alone with young people of either gender, as this prevents any questionable incidents. Of course I am alone with lots of other young people whom I know and we get along just fine. I know them and their families quite well.I never think of any of these kids in a sexual manner, but I could see how the opportunity would be there for a molester. Kids need love and they open up to anyone who shows them love. Especially inner city kids with no Fathers. One question: Can molesters help their compulsions? Are they victims of their childhood molestations or are they devious and uncaring? This message has been edited by Phatboy, 03-24-2005 04:36 PM
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
My understanding is that most molestors of boys are male heterosexuals. Statistically, yes...because there is a larger percentage of heterosexuals than homosexuals. I believe that if we could examine the statistics of boys older than 12 who were molested, we would find a larger percentage of homosexuals...primarily because of the attraction. I am not gay bashing, here...however.
BACK TO THE TOPIC,HOWEVER>>> Morality is not divorced from spirituality, IMO, because spiritual reality is a part of everyones makeup be they believer or atheist.Behavior is not improved by profession of spirituality in general..witness divorce stats in and out of church. Morality is intrinsic because spiritual awareness is intrinsic. I guess that I am full of assertions, today. anyone care to comment? This message has been edited by Phatboy, 03-24-2005 05:55 PM
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
BACK TO THE TOPIC,HOWEVER>>>
Im backing out of this one before it gets complicated. In response to Pink, however, I will say that I am not changing my tune...I just wing it....
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
DHA writes: Just the diversion. You represent atheists, right DHA? We are talking about morality: moral conduct or virtue. Leaving the thread, or the diversion? virtue \ver-chu\ n 1 : conformity to a standard of right : morality 2 : a particular moral excellence 3 : manly strength or courage : valor 4 : a commendable quality : merit whitestone journal.com writes: According to Webster, ethics is "the science of moral duty." He further describes it as "the science of ideal human character." The word in Greek means "dwelling" or "stall," as in a safe place to live (our word "morals" comes from the Latin word for ethics). The implication is that humans depend on right choices for security. For a Christian, and indeed for many non-Christians, Jesus Christ is the only perfectly ethical person. He is the perfect man, always making right choices, and to believe him to be flawed is to abandon Christianity completely. Upon this fact and foundation, we have a second belief that we are to allow God to transform us into an image of His Son, Jesus. Jesus calls us to follow him, become his disciples and inherit eternal life. If Jesus is the ideal human being, and we are called to imitate him, then we are called to an ethical life. What is the Basis for Christian Ethics?Christian ideas of right and wrong originate in revealed truth, i.e. they stem from what God has taught us through Jesus and the prophets and Apostles. This primarily means the Bible for some, although as Catholics we accept as equally true the teachings of the Apostles handed down through the bishops and known as Tradition. For both the Bible and Tradition, we believe we must obey because the teachings come from God, not because they are wise, will ensure a long life or prosperity. Christian ethics may be contrasted with Utilitarianism, whose adherents simply "do what works." Utilitarian ethics allowed the Holocaust, slavery, and totalitarian Communism. Because Christians do not believe humans made themselves or occurred "naturally," we do not believe we are free to do whatever suits us. Because God is the author of life, He also determines the standards of behavior for those members of His creation with free will. To DHA and others who profess no such beliefs, what do you see as the basis for morality? Is morality a learned trait? Is it a biologically evolving survival mechanism? My question to you is this: If we as a species are evolving, are we getting any better morally than we were 2000 years ago? Or are we becoming less vulgar and more efficient at killing? Consider:A.P. writes:
Good Chimps? Is there a type of morality for chimps?
Chimps Attack, Tear Off Man's NoseTwo Of The Chimps Were Shot And Killed Mar 4, 2005 4:42 pm US/Eastern CALIENTE, Calif. (AP) A couple's visit to the chimpanzee they were forced to relinquish to an animal sanctuary turned tragic when two other chimps attacked the husband, critically wounding him before the animals were shot to death in mid-assault.Dr. Maureen Martin, of Kern Medical Center, told KGET-TV of Bakersfield that the chimpanzees chewed most of Davis' face off and that he would require extensive surgery in an attempt to reattach his nose.Chealander told The Bakersfield Californian that besides the damage to his face, Davis had his testicles and foot mauled off. Buddy, a 16-year-old male chimp, initiated the attack and after he was shot, Ollie, a 13-year-old male, grabbed the gravely injured man and dragged him down the road, according to Chealander.A woman who said she was a friend of the Brauers and was leaving the sanctuary Friday morning told an Associated Press reporter that the couple is distraught. She refused to give her name. "These are good chimps," the woman said. "This is just devastating."
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