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Author Topic:   Why Darwinism is wrong
mick
Member (Idle past 5016 days)
Posts: 913
Joined: 02-17-2005


Message 140 of 305 (206200)
05-08-2005 5:41 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by jar
05-08-2005 5:34 PM


Re: talking about mutation before
jar, I only said unlimited travel WITHIN worlds, not between them.
The expectation of 4N generations for a single mutation to be fixed by drift applies within a truly randomly mating population (i.e. the population on earth, OR the population on mars).
Nonrandom mating may reduce the time required for fixation within local populations, simply because it reduces the effective population size of a mating group.
Travel between earth and mars will increase the time, because mutations are being transferred along with travellers between the two planets.
Mick

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 Message 139 by jar, posted 05-08-2005 5:34 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
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mick
Member (Idle past 5016 days)
Posts: 913
Joined: 02-17-2005


Message 142 of 305 (206211)
05-08-2005 6:11 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by jar
05-08-2005 5:51 PM


Re: talking about mutation before
One of the arguments I see around here often resolves to "Why don't we see humans evolving?"
If you mean "why don't we see humans speciating", the answer is simply that we have too high a gene flow and too large a reproductive population. Both of these pop.gen. parameters are vastly higher than the historical values.
If you mean "why don't we see humans evolving" then of course the answer is that we do.
how often should we expect to see something like that happen?
A new nearly-neutral allele is expected to spread throughout the entire global population of human beings in something considerably more than 32 billion generations (that is, if my recollection of the 4N equation is correct). Whether this has anything to do with speciation is anybody's guess. That's why speciation tends to occur in small isolated populations, where the time taken for alleles to fix is considerably lower.
This is the main reason why we don't expect to see a new species of Homo any time soon.
Of course we may want to consider an allele that has a selective benefit for the human population. that would spread much faster. I'm only talking here about a neutral allele - one that makes no difference whether you have it or not. Now imagine a selectively beneficial allele in a small isolated population, and the numbers start to get reasonable (kind of).
would we recognize an evolved human if there was one?
You wouldn't. There was nothing special about the common ancestor of all living human beings. She was just lucky. She looked exactly the same as any other female Homo sapiens.

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mick
Member (Idle past 5016 days)
Posts: 913
Joined: 02-17-2005


Message 149 of 305 (206506)
05-09-2005 1:48 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by Jianyi Zhang
05-09-2005 1:17 PM


Jianyi writes:
In website, I list bottlenect and Mito. Eves as evidences
Jianyi's website writes:
According to the GMCMI model, every species have two Eves. The first one is the single ancestral mother, who gave birth to a new species, the second Eve or ‘Eves is a group of females with very similar genetically structure, who are the first generation or seed of new species. In terms of human, most likely, its ancestor or first Eve was one member of ape-like animals; the second Eves was a group of mothers with identical human genetic structure and phenotype.
hi Jianyi,
I don't understand about your theory of "Eves". How is this different to the theory of RMNS?
Best wishes,
Mick

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 Message 148 by Jianyi Zhang, posted 05-09-2005 1:17 PM Jianyi Zhang has replied

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 Message 150 by Jianyi Zhang, posted 05-09-2005 2:09 PM mick has replied

mick
Member (Idle past 5016 days)
Posts: 913
Joined: 02-17-2005


Message 156 of 305 (206590)
05-09-2005 7:03 PM
Reply to: Message 150 by Jianyi Zhang
05-09-2005 2:09 PM


Hi Jianyi,
I'm sorry, I know you get fed up when people don't understand your theory. I'm not trying to pick faults or anything, but just to understand better.
I couldn't understand whether these are parts of the RMNS theory, or parts of your own theory.
Jianyi writes:
1) Speciation occurs at individual level, new species did not come as population at the beginning.
2) There is no NS involved at the creation, only gross random mutation is enough.

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 Message 150 by Jianyi Zhang, posted 05-09-2005 2:09 PM Jianyi Zhang has replied

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 Message 157 by Jianyi Zhang, posted 05-09-2005 7:08 PM mick has replied
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mick
Member (Idle past 5016 days)
Posts: 913
Joined: 02-17-2005


Message 158 of 305 (206595)
05-09-2005 7:30 PM
Reply to: Message 157 by Jianyi Zhang
05-09-2005 7:08 PM


Thank Jianyi!
Your post made a lot of sense. I may stop posting on this thread.
Mick

This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by Jianyi Zhang, posted 05-09-2005 7:08 PM Jianyi Zhang has replied

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mick
Member (Idle past 5016 days)
Posts: 913
Joined: 02-17-2005


Message 211 of 305 (207435)
05-12-2005 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 210 by Jianyi Zhang
05-12-2005 12:37 PM


Re: The return of Lamarkian evolution is imminent !
Hi Jianyi,
Your hypothesis does sound pretty similar to RMNS to me.
First you have a gross mutation. So we agree on the importance of random mutation.
Then carriers of the mutation have to reproduce. if they can't find partners who share the gross mutation (i.e their twins, or whatever) or if they can't reproduce asexually, can't have virgin births, then they go extinct and the gross mutation is lost from the gene pool . So we agree on natural selection. This is the strongest form of natural selection - reproduction or extinction.
so your model is: random mutation + natural selection.
Mick

This message is a reply to:
 Message 210 by Jianyi Zhang, posted 05-12-2005 12:37 PM Jianyi Zhang has replied

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mick
Member (Idle past 5016 days)
Posts: 913
Joined: 02-17-2005


Message 222 of 305 (209497)
05-18-2005 8:17 PM
Reply to: Message 219 by Jianyi Zhang
05-13-2005 4:36 PM


hybridization
Jianyi writes:
The MISTWGM does not have to incest, they can mate with parental species, however, there is no healthy offspring, or no offspring at all, as they are different biological species. They only can have healthy offspring by mating among themselve.
This is a very bad description of hybridization in birds, which can hybridize readily and produce fertile or semi-fertile offspring.
how does your theory account for the widespread hybridization we find in nature?
Cheers
Mick

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 Message 219 by Jianyi Zhang, posted 05-13-2005 4:36 PM Jianyi Zhang has replied

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mick
Member (Idle past 5016 days)
Posts: 913
Joined: 02-17-2005


Message 232 of 305 (210276)
05-21-2005 5:06 PM
Reply to: Message 228 by NosyNed
05-20-2005 1:40 AM


Re: On-line Darwinism Documentary
Ned, thanks so much for the link! That has to be the funniest thing I've ever seen. In chapter one, when Darwin ("the amateur naturalist") is introduced, the images go all black and white, and sinister music appears in the background. It's just like America's most wanted, where the serial rapist appears. Brilliant!
Thanks! I'm sending this link around my lab immediately.
Mick

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 Message 228 by NosyNed, posted 05-20-2005 1:40 AM NosyNed has not replied

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