Religious views of Magic the Gathering--PLEASE HELP!

Anything that deals with occultic imagery, which includes magic, spells, etc, is thought to be a gateway to deeper occultic involvement, an invitation to demonic influence of an occultic sort. Old-fashioned occultic practices such as astrology, Ouija board, seances, tarot cards, are more obvious. Any form of superstition may be a gateway, however, it seems to me. I don't know that anyone has yet identified a direct connection between the kind of game you are talking about and actual witchcraft or sorcery, but it seems to me if parents don't like it they should simply withdraw their children from such activities.This message has been edited by Faith, 06-17-2005 12:58 AM

That remark gave the demons a good chortle.

Geekery I can appreciate. The question is why all the occult imagery. I took a brief look at the game's website and saw just HOW oriented to the occult it is. Surely a good game of adventurous complexities for the geekery gang could do without the sorcery.

Sure, given THAT, no problem. I'm sure the demons find YOU amusing too.

Anything that suggests ways to communicate with spirits or invites such communication is occultic. A game is not just a story ABOUT these things, it apparently involves game decisions based on the personal USE of such things at points in the game. However, I agree the imagery is dramatic, and I don't know if there is anything in the game that actually encourages occultic indulgence, I'm merely interested in the popular emphasis on these things in games. It really doesn't seem necessary.

Perhaps that is all there is to it. But any kid who did get entangled with demons would be in deep trouble and that's what worries Christian parents.

It doesn't sound like it contains any real dangers of the sort that worry Christians, it's just that the imagery itself suggests those dangers.This message has been edited by Faith, 06-17-2005 10:37 PM

But if it doesn't actually flirt with sorcery why would you denounce it just because sorcery is real?

There's a ton of evidence in witness reports in all religions and cultures. But I understand, you occupy the superior enlightened position of being able to pronounce all those other human beings deluded. Demons, devils and fallen angels are synonymous.

It's possible to be entangled and not know it. However, the process is to believe in and consult oracles or seek supernatural powers. Fortunately you no doubt don't believe in them any more than you believe in God so you're safe. Sort of. I mean if they don't get you that way they'll get you some other way anyway, so in a sense this whole concern with occultic games is a bit academic.This message has been edited by Faith, 06-18-2005 01:52 PM

Uh huh, but you've lost track of the sequence here. You were the one who raised the hypothetical that if sorcery WERE real then you'd condemn the game, and I was answering that by saying that even if it were real, if the game doesn't promote it in any way, why condemn it.

Yes, and though some are no doubt overimagination, they are all part of the evidence that there is a normally-unseen world that in my opinion nobody has a right to dismiss as a delusion simply because it's the prejudice these days that such things don't exist. It's all witness evidence and some is better than others and whether it's reliable or not is a very complex judgment call that takes quite a bit of thought. Certainly I'd need more evidence but I wouldn't expect there to be evidence beyond your own experience. I'd need to interview you to determine if I believed you or not, though in any case I'm not likely to believe that the specifics of an apparition are true (Krishna, Mary, etc), as I believe demons manifest in various forms and rarely appear as themselves. And if you with your prejudices said such a thing in a serious way -- not at EvC where I'd know it was a put-on -- I might be inclined to take it seriously, but I wouldn't believe or disbelieve it without knowing quite a bit about it. Whatever, they're wrong, you're right, about their own personal experiences. Not about anybody's personal experiences. I tend to believe it's presumptuous and rude to question what people say about their personal experience without a GREAT deal of reason to doubt it, but belief systems are something else. That involves a completely objective judgment based on the doctrinal claims of the respective belief systems. Like I said in response, the evidence is witness evidence. That kind of evidence requires a different kind of testing than physical evidence does. It involves judgment of many clues to credibility or the lack of it. Not all questions can be tested in a science laboratory.This message has been edited by Faith, 06-18-2005 03:39 PM

You could dig up all the reports of all the experiences of such phenomena over all the millennia in all cultures as well as I could. You know it exists. Then you will have the witness evidence I'm talking about for the study you appear to be interested in conducting. If you want to specify specific named witnesses you are free to do that with your own study, but I didn't specify such. Witness evidence as I use the term is testimony in whatever form it is found. Good luck.This message has been edited by Faith, 06-18-2005 07:13 PM

I don't know.

If you don't think there are such reports I wonder where you've been. Schraf admits there are such reports in her Message 87 where she said: