rcpriest writes:
“It is grace, the RC Church teaches that "has the power to justify us, that is, to cleanse us from our sins and to communicate to us ”the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ . ’”
If a life-long violent criminal has accepted Jesus as Lord and saviour and soon afterwards holds up a liquor store, murders the owner and gets shot dead by a policeman during the getaway does he go to hell? If so, why?
With regards to Purgatory, it is important to realize that it was believed by the earliest members of Christianity, as well as the Jews before them. II Maccabees 12:39-45 illustrates this historical truth.
Paul rebuked Peter due to the latter distorting the Gospel when he chose to hang with Jews so as not to be seen with unclean Gentiles. Was the council at Jerusalem not called in order to deal with the hangover of Jewish legalism which was trying to add something to the Gospel. The church was warned against false teaching that would come in, from within the body itself as soon as it was established.
What basis is there for believing that early Christian fathers got it right. There is nothing to say that they were inspired in their writing. So why should their writing be considered inerrant?
I want to make a very important distinction. II Maccabees 12:39-45 does two things. First it makes the philosophical/theological claim that to pray for the dead is a good thing, implying that there is some sort of intermediate state where departed individuals can benefit from our prayers. This claim can be rejected by those who do not view Maccabees as Sacred Scripture. But the second point is the one relevant to this post. The verse makes the historical claim that certain Jews from this time prayed for those who had died.
It is true that Maccabees is not accepted by many as scripture and if so, what it says is irrelevant in relation to doctrine. The Jews had all kinds of confused thinking, not least of which was the idea that righteousness came by following laws - ie: what you do affects your position with God (works)
Around the time of Jesus, we have rabbinical writings testifying to the existence of a ”Purgatory,’ though they would not have used that particular word. And throughout early Christianity we have hosts of early Church Fathers endorsing the view, as well as Biblical authors that are see to be hinting towards it.
Theres the rub I suppose. If you take things that are non-scriptural into account then you've got man-made (and thus fallible) in the equation. If you take scripture alone then a hint is all that is left. And a hint is not enough to form a doctrine with.
Logically speaking, from a Christian perspective, all people are sinners. While Jesus died for our sins, it doesn’t change the fact that we still sin, and it doesn’t change the fact that we are in need of forgiveness. When we die we will die a sinful being.
Scripturally speaking, it is sin which resides in the flesh which wars with the believers spirit - which has been justified. The old man is crucified with Christ and the person is resurrected - in Christ. And there is no condemnation for those that are in Christ. The old man is gone - he can't come back - irrespective of future sin. This, given that it is not we who sin but sin which dwells in our flesh. There is a distinction between spirit and flesh especially in the light of a person who is born of the spirit (or born again). Isn't it only the flesh which dies (and thus sin with it) on death, leaving only the justified spirit.
The point is though that purification takes place, and all Christian’s believe this. Catholics calls this Purgatory.
But the distinction is the a non-Catholic Christian believes it happens at the point of conversion - not after death. I'm not sure the word purification is biblical either: justified, sanctified, glorified seems to be the process
This message has been edited by iano, 19-Sep-2005 02:13 PM
Romans 10:9-10: " if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved....."
™ Version 4.2
