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Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Age Correlations and an Old Earth: Part II. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Christian Member (Idle past 6285 days) Posts: 157 Joined: |
I'm coming. I haven't read or posted anything since Thursday and now it's Tuesday so I'm just getting back into it.
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Christian Member (Idle past 6285 days) Posts: 157 Joined: |
Not quite. The cave drawings were dated with 14C (1), from artifacts found in the cave that had been living plant material before being brought into the caves by the artists.
OK, got that part.
What the lake varves actually do is correlate the 14C with the variations in atmospheric 14N and cosmic radiation (how 14C is generated). This means fewer assumptions in the date answers.
Is it that they can tell what the climate was like then, when these artifacts were supposedly made? This is very foggy for me.Maybe because I don't know much about C14 or N14.
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Christian Member (Idle past 6285 days) Posts: 157 Joined: |
A good overview of the method, problems, limitations and accuracy of radiometric Carbon 14 dating can be found at Carbon Dating:
I tried to look at this but the page could not be displayed. It's hard for me to put a lot of stock in carbon dating when I've heard so many accounts of things that were known to be younger or even still alive that came out old when they dated them. Also I've heard of diamonds which should be billions of years old, but still have carbon in them.
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NosyNed Member Posts: 9004 From: Canada Joined: |
I tried to look at this but the page could not be displayed. It's hard for me to put a lot of stock in carbon dating when I've heard so many accounts of things that were known to be younger or even still alive that came out old when they dated them. Also I've heard of diamonds which should be billions of years old, but still have carbon in them. As you learn more about it these things are explained. You should be very careful of all the sources that you read.
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Chiroptera Inactive Member |
quote: Heh. I should hope so. Diamonds are basically pure carbon. If they didn't have carbon in them, they would disappear.
Sorry. I couldn't resist.
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NosyNed Member Posts: 9004 From: Canada Joined: |
Is it that they can tell what the climate was like then, when these artifacts were supposedly made? This is very foggy for me. Maybe because I don't know much about C14 or N14. RASD has moved a bit quickly I think. The climate isn't the influence on C14 dates that is the concern. We know where C14 comes from (it is created high in the atmosphere from N14 (I think it is) by radiation from space). We also know that the rate of creation of C14 is not constant. So we know that a correction to C14 dates is needed. The lake varves offer a measure of the degree of error caused by the non-constant creation of C14 and a correction for it. The degree of error is less than 10 %. The corrections vary from very much less than that up to about that much.
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roxrkool Member (Idle past 1019 days) Posts: 1497 From: Nevada Joined: |
I'm sure you mean diamonds with Carbon-14 in them, so do you have an article on this? I couldn't find any papers on GeoRef about such a thing.
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NosyNed Member Posts: 9004 From: Canada Joined: |
I have read some material about C14 in diamonds that is generated by local radioactivity and the levels are right for that source. I think it has even come up here before.
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roxrkool Member (Idle past 1019 days) Posts: 1497 From: Nevada Joined: |
I know I've seen it mentioned before, but has it only been found and studied by creationist organizations? I can't find any mainstream papers about this. I've tried several different search terms, but perhaps I haven't hit the right one yet.
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Coragyps Member (Idle past 764 days) Posts: 5553 From: Snyder, Texas, USA Joined: |
The only study I've seen was YEC - from AiG, I think. Probably a poster session at a real geology meeting! The 14C levels were pretty dang low, giving "dates" of 40,000 years old or so. I may have something at home with some leads on this: I'll look if I get the chance this evening. There are certainly paths to creating 14C in diamonds, from either 13C or nitrogen that's present in the diamond, but I have no clue about how much these paths could actually make.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
and all they need to do is find diamonds near a radioactive source - same as coal and uranium problem.
also 45k to 50k is the limit of 14C methods (depends on method used -- and I would "trust" AiG to use the lesser accurate methods) This message has been edited by RAZD, 10*25*2005 06:25 PM by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
I tried to look at this but the page could not be displayed. (sigh) another broken link in an old post. Thanks, I have now fixed it. Try this site (several linked pages with some good graphics):How Carbon-14 Dating Works | HowStuffWorks It's hard for me to put a lot of stock in carbon dating when I've heard so many accounts of things that were known to be younger or even still alive that came out old when they dated them. Try this site for some explanations of the problems that scientists know about (and creatortionistas exploit) -- please note the title:Radiometric Dating - A Christian Perspective Radiometric Dating This article is VERRRRY LOOOOOONG (every time I visit it seems he has added whole new sections) and he discusses all forms of radiometric dating, so you may want to search the page for where "carbon" is discussed to read just those sections initially. You may want to print it out to read later.
Also I've heard of diamonds which should be billions of years old, but still have carbon in them. I'll assume you do mean 14C rather than all C (12C, 13C and 14C), as a pure diamond would be nothing but carbon ... 12C is the normal everyday version and the other two are both much much smaller components of the total carbon. 14C is the one used for dating. One of the problems here is contamination, either in the ground or after the fact, by other radioactive substances that then cause a false measurement. Wiens discusses this as well. Gotta go. more later. This message has been edited by RAZD, 10*25*2005 09:12 PM by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Is it that they can tell what the climate was like then, when these artifacts were supposedly made? There are many things that indicate climate trends and patterns to the paleobotanists and paleoclimatologists, from numbers and kinds of pollen to types of flora and fauna. Google on {"Younger Dryas" climate} (use the quotes as shown) and you will find information about a specific cooler climate period about 12,900 - 11,500 years ago. It is called the "Younger" because there were others that preceeded it. At wikipedia (Dryas - Wikipedia) you will see that this is named for a plant that occurs then:
In botany, Dryas is a plant genus, family Rosaceae. In climatology, Dryas is a name given to several climatic periods in which the plant Dryas flourished. See, for example, Younger Dryas. You can also google {"little ice age"} and you will see reference to a very cold period from the 14th to the mid-19th centuries that was also documented in the historical texts ... and it affected what farmers could grow, so it shows up in harvest reports as well. We also know that the production of 14C is affected by the climate, thus we can predict that there would be a specific variation of 14C age data with climate and would expect a specific sided variation in the data during the above periods. This was observed, it is one of many such correlations.
Maybe because I don't know much about C14 or N14. Ignorance (no slight intended, just the meaning of the word) is not a crime ... unless it is used to form (unfounded) opinions. It is also curable: you can find out. Enjoy. by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share.
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roxrkool Member (Idle past 1019 days) Posts: 1497 From: Nevada Joined: |
Like you, I've only found creationist sites that cite this evidence, but I haven't actually found the exact paper, either, that presents the results of such a study. Knowing what I know about creationist 'research,' I wouldn't be surprised if the C-14 was the result of contamination.
I couldn't find any secular papers discussing C-14 in diamonds, do you have links or refs to any?
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roxrkool Member (Idle past 1019 days) Posts: 1497 From: Nevada Joined: |
Do you have a link discussing diamonds-radioactivity?
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