Let me say, regardless of whatever I am about to write, I found your post worthwhile and intriguing...
I agree with randman that it's useful to a degree that it's worth making room for. Because of that, for me, arguing whether it's "necessary" or not is not worthwhile.
Unfortunately that is the actual topic of this specific thread. He claimed that an adequate basic education is impossible without biblical instruction from a believers point of view. That is patently incorrect to me, countered by many who have not received such education and are quite productive and those who have and are not at all productive.
That is all I was intending to discuss here.
But since it seems I cannot get that going, let me address where you are headed. I suspect it will at least result in some answers, and at least a bit more honest give and take.
To be honest, there is a lot of stuff that I think could be worthwhile making room for in education. I think our nation has the ability to educate its children beyond minimal basics. I would not even oppose allowing more in depth study of religion within a core educational program. Its just that that is not synonymous with what is necessary for a basic education. That means it is desired for a better than basic education.
Too much responsibility in the parent's hands, there has to be a system of "checks and balances" in education. It's not uncommon for parents to have a limited scope of cultural knowledge. It just doesn't work in today's globalized world.
Oh, we are in complete disagreement on this one. To me there is no such thing as too much responsibility in parents' hands. Education is a service provided by the community for the benefit of parents. It is not a tool used by the govt to raise children properly.
I agree that parents cannot have the capability of teaching every single subject under the sun, but enculturing them is not a problem. There is no prereq for helping children understand who they are and where they are living. You seem to be asking for a specific perspective to be taught to kids. As much as I agree with that perspective and will be instructing my kids that way, I am under no illusion that others want that kind of instruction for their own children and indeed randman's desires seem to be quite the opposite.
I assume you mean study of our first language. How is that helpful at all? Vocabulary is best learned in an applied environment
Yes, I meant the primary language though for nations whose language is not part of international trade/diplomacy, they might also be wise to learn one of those as well.
Foreign languages can be useful and part of a more developed education, but truly are not necessary for an adequate education for life in one's own nation.
The rest of your discussion, including both logic and math are about method of education and not what is being taught. I wholeheartedly agree that the majority of education should be taught in application rather than strict theory or terminology.
In fact I was lucky in my college education to get a professor who taught logic almost primarily through application to various situations (that is arguments made in many different fieds). And whereas I used to hate word problems I eventually came to realize exactly what you said, the world is word problems.
Of course I don't think there is nothing to basic theory and terminology. A combo or both is probably the best bet.
In the end analysis, the subjects or tools developed would be language (the ability to communicate), logic (the ability to properly communicate/understand ideas as well as analyze relations between facts... essentially qualitative phenomena), and math (understanding the logical relation between quantitative phenomena).
Who needs geometry?
Apparently you aren't a do it yourselfer. Knowing geometry has been very helpful for determining quantities and measurements of materials needed. Besides which it is useful for many potential future career choices.
Here's a simple word problem for you... You need to repaint your apartment because there has been some damage and otherwise you'll forfeit your deposit. Figure out how much paint you need and the cost of that paint. This includes repainting the ceiling which contains several large circular fixtures that can't be painted. Okay I'm not asking you to solve the problem, but you can see where math and geometry suddenly get more valuable.
I have a real hard time believing that the contents of science class are useful in any jobs.
Basic chemistry and physics are useful in real life, as well as many jobs as we become more chemically and technologically advanced. I guess one does not need to have any formal training in anything, and simply be allowed to learn in real life situations. Perhaps we should move back toward guilds? Not necessarily being sarcastic with that. It's possible that on the job education has become more useful (again) than theoretical primary education.
I might add that any job that involves potentially mixing chemicals, such as janitors, can benefit from knowing a bit about chemistry. I knew a dumbass who collapsed his lungs due to a lack of knowledge regarding chemicals.
And by the way, ANYONE in medicine needs to know chemistry. I have never been more frightened than tutoring premed students and discovering they did not know how to properly calculate concentrations, and thus to properly dilute solutions or reach proper volumes. Them's are chemicals they put in our bodies!
You need to situate yourself in the world, give context to your own life. Without it, I just see "big fish in a big pond" syndrome; believing that your local community is somehow representative of larger parts of the world. Not only that, but having a lack of concern... or thought about the rest of the world.
You NEED to do this? I don't think that's true at all. It is useful but one can have a context regarding ones life, even a proper one, without knowing about the rest of the world. I certainly believe that leaders of society should have this broader perspective, and communicate that to their representatives, but am not sure this is necessary for one to have a proper basic education.
To me if one has a proper basic education one is the situated to deal with these other issues as one encounters them in real life.
But don't get me wrong. I agree that this is useful and I would want my schools to include such education so that they can have a better than basic education.
And in fact I think the US should think of having more programs to send kids overseas in order to experience other cultures firsthand. Exchange programs can do much to educate our population as well as educate other populations. The problem is that most other nations do have this, but the US doesn't.
Some degree of facts need to be taught, so that a "cultural literacy" is maintained and people (past, present, and future) can communicate efficiently and accurately
Agreed.
Yes, it's hard to choose, yes, you're damned no matter how you choose... that doesn't mean it's right to ditch the enterprise. It just means every choice is imperfect. Making no choice is just worse.
I'm not sure it is worse, becausing making no choice simply means they experience culture as they normally would in life. Its not like they return to a box after school.
In fact with the increase in communications technology kids are being introduced to people of different cultures, or potentially can, in ways that go beyond what they would encounter in school.
I never learned a thing about society from school, and having a teacher tell me about what context my life has would generally have driven me to tune them out. Why is real life outside school less an important avenue of learning one's context?
I think teaching about Christianity, some historical, some cultural, is a very important part of establishing that context.
Xianity was alien to me from the first time I was taught it, up until I finally decided I couldn't fake it any more. Other than how they act toward me now, which I will pick up in papers more than from school, they have no connection to me. That is knowledge about them has not put my life in any "context".
My kids could easily grow up not knowing anything about Xians, besides the fact that they exist, and do just fine. I have had friends, and indeed my current girlfriend, that knew nothing about Xianity other than they have churches and worship some guy named Jesus, and were quite intelligent and capable in what they did.
Learning later about Xianity in more detail, did not make them happy in the least (it was repulsive to them), and it did not make them any better at what they did.
Religion is a personal journey. It is best left that.
holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)
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