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Author Topic:   Near-death experiences and consciousness
randman 
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Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 1 of 145 (263989)
11-29-2005 1:37 AM


The most remarkable thing, Van Lommel says, is that his patients have such consciousness-expanding experiences while their brains register no activity. But that’s impossible, according to the current level of medical knowledge. Because most scientists believe that consciousness occurs in the brain, this creates a mystery: How can people experience consciousness while they are unconscious during a cardiac arrest (a clinical death)?
After all those years of intensive study, Van Lommel still speaks with reverence about the miracle of the near-death experience. “At that moment these people are not only conscious; their consciousness is even more expansive than ever. They can think extremely clearly, have memories going back to their earliest childhood and experience an intense connection with everything and everyone around them. And yet the brain shows no activity at all!”
This has raised a number of large questions for Van Lommel: “What is consciousness and where is it located? What is my identity? Who is doing the observing when I see my body down there on the operating table? What is life? What is death?”
....
In order to convince his colleagues of the validity of these new insights, Van Lommel first had to demonstrate that this expansion of the consciousness occurred, in fact, during the period of brain death. It was not difficult to prove. Patients were often able to describe precisely what had happened during their cardiac arrest. They knew, for example, exactly where the nurse put their dentures or what doctors and family members had said. How would someone whose brain wasn’t active know these things?
Nevertheless, some scientists continue to assert that these experiences must happen at a time when there is still some brain function going on. Van Lommel is crystal clear in his response: “When the heart stops beating, blood flow stops within a second. Then, 6.5 seconds later, EEG activity starts to change due to the shortage of oxygen. After 15 seconds there is a straight, flat line and the electrical activity in the cerebral cortex has disappeared completely. We cannot measure the brain stem, but testing on animals has demonstrated that activity has ceased there as well. Moreover, you can prove that the brain stem is no longer functioning because it regulates our basic reflexes, such as the pupil response and swallowing reflex, which no longer respond. So you can easily stick a tube down someone’s throat. The respiratory centre also shuts down. If the individual is not reanimated within five to 10 minutes, their brain cells are irreversibly damaged.” He is aware that his findings on consciousness fly in face of orthodox scientific thinking. It is remarkable that an authoritative science journal like The Lancet was willing to publish his article. But it wasn’t without a struggle. Van Lommel recalls with a smile, “It took months before I got the green light. And then they suddenly wanted it finished, within a day.”
http://www.odemagazine.com/article.php?aID=4207
Imo, the study published in the Lancet scientifically confirms that consciousness exists outside of the brain and after death. The fact people can remember what happened when their brain is inactive and they are dead is proof positive of this.
For this discussion, I suggest this go into the ID forum simply because I think in order to talk about an ID mechanism, that something like consciousness needs to be discussed, perhaps defined which is hard to do. In other words, if we are going to discuss a potential for an Intelligent Consciousness to affect the natural world, I think it's useful to discuss what consciousness is, and where it resides.
So my topic proposal is to discuss this study, and the claims stemming from it. I will say that although I have met people with experiences such as the one described, I see a flaw in the magazine's depiction of the study (haven't read the original) in that some people do not have such a positive experience, and have even had the experience of being in a pit not being able to get out.

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4928 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 13 of 145 (264110)
11-29-2005 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Ben!
11-29-2005 10:46 AM


Re: A link to the actual study
I don't know for sure, but the claim in the article is that electrical signals stop, and that electrical signals measure brain activitity.

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4928 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 14 of 145 (264114)
11-29-2005 12:28 PM


brain activity
After 15 seconds there is a straight, flat line and the electrical activity in the cerebral cortex has disappeared completely.
It seems to me the doctor addresses the issue of brain activity here. His work was published in a prestigious medical journal.
Can anyone show where it is likely that electrical activity continues in the cerebral cortex after 15 seconds, or is it more a statement of belief that somehow the brain must still be functioning?

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4928 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 17 of 145 (264119)
11-29-2005 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Ben!
11-29-2005 12:33 PM


Re: A link to the actual study
By all means ask them.

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4928 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 22 of 145 (264169)
11-29-2005 3:21 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by jar
11-29-2005 12:42 PM


Re: brain activity
It does appear in the study. Read it. I can't copy and paste from that link, but it's there.

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4928 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 23 of 145 (264170)
11-29-2005 3:23 PM


back to the study
The study argues that the fact that only a portion experienced NDEs shows it is not likely to be the result of a medical phenomenon such as brain activity, but shows something else.

  
randman 
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Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 25 of 145 (264202)
11-29-2005 4:50 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by jar
11-29-2005 4:21 PM


Under Discussion for one.
Look under Discussion, which starts:
Our results show that medical factors cannot account for NDES...
Go to the last page and there are clear references to the fact NDES occur when "the brain no longer functions...with a flat EEG."
It's unequivocal in it's claims.

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4928 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 28 of 145 (264242)
11-29-2005 6:01 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by jar
11-29-2005 5:57 PM


Re: Under Discussion for one.
Jar, you aren't reading the same article or you are glossing over it over and picking and choosing quotes out of context.
The original quote may not be word for word in the article, but clearly he refers to the same idea, that brains are inactive due to flat EEGs, and therefore the patient's memories cannot be explained by brain activity.
The statement you think is inclusive is merely a nice, academic way of stating that the evidence suggests consciousness is not localised in the brain.

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4928 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 32 of 145 (264252)
11-29-2005 6:12 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by jar
11-29-2005 5:57 PM


Re: Under Discussion for one.
Look under Discussions.
Our results show medical factors cannot account for recurrence of NDEs...
All of the objections raised thus far are answered in the study. There is a reason he concludes their results eliminate medical factors in explaining NDEs, and that Lancelet published the findings.
Keep reading to the last page, first column, 3rd paragraph from the bottom and read the whole paragraph, not selecting a quote out of context.
With lack of evidence for any other theories for NDE, the thus far assumed, but never proven, concept that consciousness and memories are localised in the brain should be discussed. How could a clear consciousness outside of one's body be experienced at the moment the brain no longer functions during a period of clinical death with flat EEG?
He obviously makes the same point he does in the Ode article, that there is clear consciousness outside of the body when the brain is not functioning and this is an observed fact. He raises the issue that the previously maintained idea that consciousness resides in the brain should be discussed because he has demonstrated "clear consciousness outside of one's body" when the "brain no longer functions."
He is stating that clear consciousness outside of the body when the brain no longer functions is a fact attested to by the study and that we should consider the question of where consciousness resides in light of this factual claim.
This message has been edited by randman, 11-29-2005 06:15 PM

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 Message 37 by Ben!, posted 11-29-2005 6:31 PM randman has replied

  
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4928 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 35 of 145 (264259)
11-29-2005 6:22 PM


clinical death defined for study
Moreover, the study defines clinical death for that study as:
We defined clinical death as a period of unconsciousness by an insufficient blood supply to the brain
The study is designed to deal with the brain and consciousness, and clearly asserts the memories cannot be the result of brain activity due to flat EEGs in the Discussion part.

  
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4928 days)
Posts: 6367
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Message 36 of 145 (264264)
11-29-2005 6:30 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Wounded King
11-29-2005 6:19 PM


Re: Under Discussion for one.
WK, the article is in medical journal and specifies that they define clinical death as when insufficient blood flow goes to the brain causing unconciousness. They also flat out state that it is a given that during this period of time, there is a flat EEG.
What's not to understand about this?
He mentions the flat EEG occurs within about 10 seconds. He clearly states in the study that consciousness occurs when there is no EEG.
Keep in mind. All of these people were people that experiences cardiac arrest or something similar in real life. No, they probably did not have strings attached to their heads to measure EEGs because they were trying to rescussitate the people to save their lives. The study thus treats the flat EEG claim as a common medical fact, not even debatable.
This message has been edited by randman, 11-29-2005 06:42 PM

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4928 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 38 of 145 (264266)
11-29-2005 6:34 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by jar
11-29-2005 6:18 PM


Re: Under Discussion for one.
Wrong. He draws a clear conclusion that consciousness occurs outside of the body with a flat EEG.
He then questions how can this be?
The questioning is not that it occurs, but how it can occur, specifically how can consciousness outside of the body occur if consciousness is located in the brain.
Geesh, man. It's totally unequivocal.

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4928 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 39 of 145 (264268)
11-29-2005 6:38 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Ben!
11-29-2005 6:31 PM


Re: Under Discussion for one.
But that's all within the scope of a factual claim the author makes, namely that consciousness occurs during a flat EEGs and that this consciousness is from a perspective outside of the body, and also he relates the significance of such experiences and the type of awareness involved.
So we have a factual claim, and then we have discussions on how this could occur. I can grant that medical reasons are as you say, but that does not change the claim of flat EEGs during these experiences.

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4928 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 42 of 145 (264275)
11-29-2005 6:55 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Wounded King
11-29-2005 6:42 PM


Re: Under Discussion for one.
I saw the 10 seconds mentioned and corrected that in an edit.
Now where does it say that there is a flat EEG for the entire period of time?
No, you are right. It just says there is a flat EEG within about 10 seconds and mentions specific memories that occurred after those 10 seconds.
What's not to understand here?
Also, the memories and specific events are not really anecdotal in this context. They are specific evidence.
assumption doesn't mean that all of those people were flatlining when they had their NDEs. Whether there was any electrical activity or not is only important if you can show that the NDE actually occurred during that period, not merely that they recall it as having done so but some actual objective measure to allow you to place the timing.
The paper describes a common experience, and lists specific examples of remembered facts that occured over a longer period of time than 10 seconds.
Once again, what's not to understand about this? Specifically, why do you consider the evidence anecdotal? In this context, it is not anecdotal. The patient had memories during a time of flat EEGs, and the memories proved correct when those were present were questioned. That's not anecdotal. That's real evidence.

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4928 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 43 of 145 (264278)
11-29-2005 7:02 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Ben!
11-29-2005 6:55 PM


Re: Under Discussion for one.
There is only one claim of flat EEGs... so it's really hard to accept as scientific evidence.
Actually, the claim is much wider, that in cardiac arrest, flat EEGs occur in about 10 seconds.
The important point is whether there's believable evidence of conscious activity happening without corresponding brain activity. The quality of the conscious experience doesn't matter at all.
I agree for the context of this debate, but not from a medical perspective which is one reason he places so much emphasis on the quality and effect of such experiences.
Sorry, I didn't catch what this means.
It's not important for this thread. He discusses the impact of NDEs on patients. That's all. There are intriguing aspects of greater mental awareness, etc,...but it's a secondary issue. Maybe we can pick it up later.
I think you are mistaking a little of the questioning as questioning whether brain activity can be the explanation. I see him as ruling out brain activity and saying, guys, what is going on?

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