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Author | Topic: Are sexual prohibitions mixing religion and the law? | |||||||||||||||||||||||
nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: I asked at what age is it reasonable to expect a person to successfully manage to defy or resist coersion of a much older (and therefore higher status) person, and this is the age that was given by you. Just because there are some people who are able to consent to full on, penetrative intercourse before the age of 12 doesn't mean that most are, just as regardless of the fact that there may be some 12 or 13 year olds who are able to pass the physical requirements for entrance into the armed services, we don't allow all 12 year olds to enter the armed services. Similarly, just because there may be a few 8 year olds who are physically and mentally able to operate a motor vehicle safely, we don't allow all 8 year olds to drive. I think that the age of consent law should be at an age at which it is reasonable to expect most children to be able to read and understand a drug test result, and have the confidence to require it of their potential partner. I think 14 is a pretty good age.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
Many, many 15 year olds would meet the physical requirements. Would it be OK if 15 year olds joined the Army? quote: OK, so you do believe that age of consent is sometimes important.
quote: Of course it is! We do not allow children to sign up for the armed services not because they all would not pass the physical because we know that some would. We do not let them because we consider such a descision a serious one that a child is not prepared to make due to a lack of perspective or experience or maturity. That's what age of consent laws are all about, and that is exactly why we do not allow children in the army. Some 15 year olds may be ready, physically and mentally, to serve in the armed forces. Why not lower the age of consent for entry into the armed forces so that those who are ready may serve? For that matter, why not remove the age of consent laws WRT legal contracts with minors? Or child labor laws, as long as the parents give consent?
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: But is it reasonable to expect a child to refuse sex in marriage if they never got to choose anything at all regarding that marriage? Do you really think that the power dynamics between an adult and a 5 year old favor the child? Let's say they have been given to an adult as a spouse when in infancy and have been trained by this spouse since infancy that they must submit to any and all sexual advances, and this child, since infancy, has been dependent upon this adult spouse for everything. Is it reasonable to expect that this child will believe they even have the option to refuse?
quote: Parents can say no to any sexual partner now. The people we need to protect are the children who's parents would say "yes" to the above scenario.
quote: Sexual slavery = being owned and used and controled by another person for the purpose of their sexual gratification.
quote: Lots of things. They are "forced" to not stick their fingers into light sockets, "forced" to learn to read, "forced" to not run into a busy street.
quote: They might. I'm sure that some people ended up liking lots of things that affected the rest of their lives in major ways, like arranged marriages, that they did not have a choice in. But that's not the point. The point is, at what age is it reasonable to expect a child to understand the risks and consequences of engaging in full on penetrative intercourse? Just because some might be ready at 8 doesn't mean most will be, just as some, but not most, 8 year olds might be fully capbable of operating a motor vehicle. Just because some are capable doesn't mean that should let all of them do it.
quote: Yes, but in those cultures where this is common, little boys are usually married to little girls, not adult women, because the reason for most arranged marriages is to remove the financial burden of a female child, or to cement political ties between families.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Sure, and voting and purchasing alcohol are two drastically different activities, yet we have minimum age requirements for those, too.
quote: The fact is you are making a strawman out of my argument. Never have I equated modern warfare and sex. I was using the minimum age of conscription as an example of why we have "arbitrary" AOC laws for anything at all. What I said was:
quote: Of course it is! We do not allow children to sign up for the armed services not because they all would not pass the physical because we know that some would. We do not let them because we consider such a descision a serious one that a child is not prepared to make due to a lack of perspective or experience or maturity. That's what age of consent laws are all about, and that is exactly why we do not allow children in the army. ...and exactly why we set an AOC law regarding sexual activity. At least, that's why I think it is reasonable to have one. Do you disagree that the descision to have sex, as in full on, penetrative intercourse, requires some minimum level of perspective, experience, and maturity (and perhaps education)?
quote: Yeah, and I imagine that you would invite all your friends to enjoy your 12 year old son's nice, tight anus. See, I can imagine all sorts of insulting things about you, too. Perhaps you could stop with the ad hominems? And by the way, why do you constantly shift away from my examples of adults having sex with children and shifting to children having sexual contact or play with other children? I actually have no problem with children of similar ages fooling around or experimenting. And I do think that a 18 year old having sex with their 15 year old partner is not a problem. It's the 40 year old teacher having sex with the 12 year old student that is the problem. It is the 26 year old having sex with the 7 year old that is the problem.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: I know that this is your opinion, and I expect you believe that you have reached this opinion without any personal bias. I am sorry, but I am just not convinced that this is true, and I believe that you are oversimplifying the issues. We will have to agree to disagree. Now you may commence with the condecention and pity.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: So do the females. As in, just because there are female monkeys around doesn't mean that the females are letting the males have penetrative intercourse as often as the males would like. Therefore, the males might be masturbating not because they prefer it but because the females are rejecting their advances.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: No. Not always. That's why I used the word "might" in my statement:
Therefore, the males might be masturbating not because they prefer it but because the females are rejecting their advances. I hope that this clears up your mistake regarding what I wrote.
quote: Not true. You said, essentially, that the reason male monkeys choose to masturbate even though there are females around is because they prefer that to penetrative intercourse. I was simply bringing up the obvious point that female monkeys are not neccessarily receptive to every single male monkey's sexual advances in every single instance. Indeed, very few species of animal, including many monkey species, have females which engage in much, if any, sexual interaction, including penetrative intercourse, when they are not "in heat". This is not true of male monkeys and other species, which are usually ready to mate at all times.
quote: Oh yeah? Ever seen a mare kick the shit out of a stallion that tries to mate with her before she is interested? I have. However, if you can tell me which species of mammal, other than a few higher primates, in which the females commonly mate even when they are not "in heat", I'd be very surprised.
quote: I never said they didn't. However, how do you know that the females are receptive?
quote: Sure, but that's Bonobos. They are very special, just as we humans are, because they engage in sex when the females are not in heat. But I doubt that is true for most primate species, including monkeys.
quote: Yes holmes, I really do. You really do need to get over yourself.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
However, how do you know that the females are receptive? quote: Yes, I'm serious. Do you really believe that most or any primate species have a similar social structure to the Bonobos?? Do I have to remind you that Bonobos are apes, not monkeys? (Hint: monkeys have tails, apes do not) I really do think you should tell us how you know a female of a particular species of monkey is receptive to penetrative intercourse.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: If you are referring to those "Girls Gone Wild" videos, it's pretty well known that most, if not all in some cases, of the young women depicted in them are hired ahead of time and brought along on the shoot by the video makers.
here's the casting call ad
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