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Author | Topic: God says this, and God says that | |||||||||||||||||||||||
nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: I have to agree. Gene, you do have a tendency to reserve the right to criticize for yourself but object to others doing the same thing when they disagree with you. You did exactly that with Zhimbo in the "state-sponsored terrorism" thread. [This message has been edited by schrafinator, 12-16-2002]
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: quote: Holy cow, are you actually saying this? Christians most certainly have a political mandate, pushed by many of their churces. The Republican party wouldn't kowtow to their issues so readily otherwise.
quote: You have to hate most other religions besides Protestant Christianity, too, to be in the KKK. The people who join the KKK often say they are doing so because they want to promote the white race.
quote: ...or go to temple (be it Jewish, Hindu, etc.) or a mosque, or you believe in god on your own without organized religion, or whatever.
quote: ...with you, perhaps, but I can see haw some comparisons could be made. I mean, the KKK does claim to be Christian, and many Christian churches have advocated racism, including your own denomination.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: I am agnostic and this is the definition I most ascribe to:
quote: It's not that I think Christianity is less valid than any other religion, but all religions are invalid. We don't know. That's the end of it. [This message has been edited by schrafinator, 12-16-2002]
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Except that the default option of nature is that there is no God. You ADDED a belief in an unseen entity to nature. You are making a claim that this unseen entity exists, so that is why the onus is upon you to provide evidence for said entity's existence.
quote: Why make the claim that they are there in the first placce if you can't detect them?
quote: Obviously? People think they see Elvis, too.
quote: I say that there are three invisible pink unicorns that fly around each person's head at all times. Obviously I can see them. (!) Maybe you just can't see them. Can you prove that these unicorns aren't there? (see the problem? It is up to the claimant to support their claim. Is it reasonable to accept my unicorn claim because we do not have evidence that they do not exist?)
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: I know several people who belive in God who also actively oppose religion.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: How ironic that you characterize non-belivers as prideful and full of ego when your words are so self-righteous and condescending. In my experience, it is Christians who arrogantly think they have all the answers.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Bring forth this hard evidence, please.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: I know that you will probably not believe me, but I do not have an axe to grind regarding Mormonism. You, on the other hand, cannot tolerate any criticism of your religion whatsoever, which is why you have refused to anwer many of my questions and objections regarding it's practices and policies. You rejected each of my source links as biased, yet refused to provide any information or sources critical of LDS which you would approve of. Therefore, my conclusion is that ANY criticism of LDS is unacceptable to you. I think it is a particularly, well, strange, version of Christianity and that it is particularly hypocritical WRT image vs. reality. I also know that it has done damage to several families which I personally know. I have no problem with individual Mormons for being Mormon. I have a problem with the LDS doctrine and practices and use of political power. That you cannot tolerate any criticism of your church without resorting to calling the critic an "axe-grinder" speaks volumes.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: I don't make the claim of any group being superior. I was simply pointing out that belief in God and opposition to religion can, and do, go together.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
[QUOTE]Originally posted by gene90:
[B] quote: quote: NO, that is NOT what happened. The implications of the study were not denounced. The FINDINGS OF THE STUDY were denounced. ...as if by denouncing them Congress somehow thought that they could make the study any less valid. Scientific findings are what they are, regardless of who denounces them. You believe that Government has the right to denounce unpopular scientific findings REGARDLESS OF THE VALIDITY OF SAID RESULTS. That's kind of like denouncing scientific findings because they disagree with the Bible. That is scary, Gene, that you would approve of such Fasist activities.
[QUOTE]Define what is and is not 'ethical' while you're at it. You speak as if everyone could agree on what is ethical. [/B][/QUOTE] There are general ethical guidelines which research institutions follow. I was not intending to define what is ethical.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Since we don't know, and probably can't know, then pretending to know is not a valid conclusion. Religions say they know. I say that nobody can know. Therefore, religion is not valid. Not any of it.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
[QUOTE]Originally posted by gene90:
[B] quote: quote: That's the point. That is EXACTLY the point. You think that belief in God, a "thing not detectable with direct sensory experience" is reasonable. I replace God with ANYTHING else, and you will probably consider the analogy unreasonable. The problem is, the analogy is the same. The thought process is the same.
quote: No, because I can get all of my money out of the bank and hold it in my hands. Everyone else in the bank can see all of this money in my hands. I can hand it to the people and they can see and feel and smell it. Someone who had never seen money before could also see and touch it, even though they did not know what it is.
quote: I would remain agnostic, then, with regards to what is in the box. Like John says, however, what theists do is make all kinds of assumptions about what is inside the box and live their life based upon these assumptions.
[QUOTE]By the way your analogy contains an internal contradiction: invisible objects have no color. [/B][/QUOTE] How do you know that my invisible unicorns aren't pink if I say they are? You say that your God is male.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
[QUOTE]Originally posted by gene90:
[B] quote: quote: If they want to live within a social structure with other people, yes. There is no evidence, BTW, that Christians/religious people behave more morally that non-theists. In fact, there is evidence that certain kinds of behavior, like child molestation, is more common among fundamentalist Christians than among the general population.
quote: quote: No, simply the truth.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Couldn't help notice that you left this part of my message out: 'Religiously-based morality seems much more dangerous to me than humanistically-based morality because of this ability to dictate to large groups of people who will accept a moral code in it's entirety. Think "crusades."'
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
[QUOTE]Originally posted by gene90:
[B] quote: Nope. Therefore there is no logical support for disbelief in the unicorns, only pure agnosticism.[/QUOTE] There is no logical support for belief in the unicorns, either.
quote: But which view is more reasonable? The view that the unicorns are there, or that they are not there?
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