God says this, and God says that

John, in the previous post you said that you look for truth. I was wondering, what is your definition of truth? And how do you know it when you find it?

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Originally posted by David unfamous:

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Originally posted by funkmasterfreaky:
When I go to the Rocky Mountains (so oftenly thought of around here as just folding rock) I can see God's craftsmanship, folded rock should not cause this sort of awe.

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Do you feel the same awe when looking at an anus or ear wax? I'm sure there are many of your Gods creations that don't have quite the same affect on you.

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Personally, the reason I feel awe at such wonders as mountains is because of their sheer size and scale. But, if they were cuboid, I'd be more inclined to think they were supernaturally created...

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You know what ... I do! Everytime I find out a little bit about the workings of the human body, I am awed by the complexity and design.

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Originally posted by John:

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This pretty much my take on it. Logic isn't the relationships, it is our description of them. Forgiven, seems to want or need it to BE the relationships. This doesn't make sense to me for several reasons. Logic was invented and has been reinvented numerous times. Just look up symbolic logic on the web. There are dozens of systems. The first thing is just about any logic text is the statement that logic deals with statements, not necessarily the real world. It is an abstract system for analyzing propositions. And, logic breaks down, with the breakdown of strict classical mechanics, at sub-atomic scales. It therefore can't be an absolute.

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Just leaping out into the dark here .... Would it be acceptable to say that the only form of logic that can be absolute in your way of thinking is "that which can be measured"? ie mathematically?edited to fix these dratted quote thingies grrrr[This message has been edited by Chara, 12-10-2002]

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Originally posted by Adminnemooseus:

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edited to fix these dratted quote thingies grrrr

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CONGRATULATIONS!!! - You beat me to it. Now if everyone else would fix their coding mistakes (Hint: Use preview function).

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Adminnemooseus

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*grumble* I usually do preview ... took a shortcut this time ... bah! I need another cup a coffee

*pulling one foot out of the mud* Drat, lost that shoe .....I think the orginal question was, "Does God still speak today?"Gene, you stated that you thought the reason John does not "hear" God is because he isn't listening. John, you replied that wasn't true. Right?From this point, there really is no further discussion guys. Both statements are personal opinion. (imo *chuckle*)Anywho .... I think the discussion went to the idea that John (because he had no proof that God didn't exist) was arguing from faith just as gene (who has no proof that God does exist) was arguing from faith. Is that right?I would like to know (after having walked with God for just about 20 yrs) what exactly is a "religious experience"? This was brought up somewhere in the previous pages ... saying that this can also be drug-induced, and I really do not know what is being referred to.

As an imperfect parent, and having been a teenager, I know full well that there are times when a parent is talking but the child is not listening. Could it be perhaps that it is not that God is not "talking" to John, but that he is not listening?John, don't get upset here. I have heard you say that you have sought God and it appears to you that He is not there. That is fair. It is what you perceive. It does not necessarily mean that your conclusion is correct. You said previously that you used to be bitter, but now you just don't care. (Is that a correct paraphrase of your comment?) Is it possible that you have put up the wall? That God is, after all, speaking, but you can't hear? Not asking you to agree .... just to consider the possibility.And John, I apologize for the things that have been done to you, or the things that weren't done for you and I ask for your forgiveness.

Just wanted to pop in and say something about "faith". I am reminded of Paul (from the NT) who actively pursued and persecuted the church. Did he earn faith? I don't think so. God just kinda "blind-sided" him *chuckling at my own little pun*. Paul in several places was overwhelmed by the fact that he had been saved .... "here is a worthwhile saying, Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the worst." (1 Tim 1:5)

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Originally posted by David unfamous:
God seems to talk a lot in the Bible. At times he seems to go on and on and not shut up.

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When did He stop talking? Was it just before we had recording technologies like tape cassettes, or film cameras, or is there a passage in the Bible that explains why he doesn't chat anymore?

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In Hebrews 1:1,2 : God, who at different times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son ....

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Originally posted by John:
Chara's post seems to be missing.

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It was post #182, though now this one has that number.

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Chara, did you erase it?

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hmmmm ... that is odd, no I didn't erase it. I had just asked gene to define "revelation". Thanx for noticing.

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Originally posted by John:

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It doesn't matter why he does it. For whatever reason god punishes, the act of punishing serves to prod people into servitude. Hence, the claim that it is servitude of your own free will is tainted by the threat of punishment. If you wife slept with another man, would you be mad? Prolly. But if that other man held her at gunpoint? See the difference. God has us at gunpoint.

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John, can I take this down to the imperfect human parenthood for a moment - recognizing of course that any illustration, or comparison is going to break down in the details or in personal experience?There is a verse in Hebrews 12 that says, "For [our earthly fathers] disciplined us for only a short period of time and chastised us as seemed proper and good to them; but HE disciplines us for our certain good, that we may become sharers in His own holiness."When we don't have a proper earthly picture of this, we can sometimes get a distorted view of what God's punishment is all about. I can vividly remember not enjoying being punished by my earthly father, but one thing I did know, looking back on it is that he always desired the best for me, that he loved me.

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Originally posted by schrafinator:

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Religions say they know. I say that nobody can know. Therefore, religion is not valid. Not any of it.

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Schraf,
Can you explain how you got to "therefore" from the previous statements? I'm confused.

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Originally posted by schrafinator:

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Hmm. Religions claim to know the unknowable. If someone claims to know the unknowable, their claims are not valid.

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And what is it that you define as "unknowable"? Just trying to get a sense of what you're saying here.

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Originally posted by gene90:

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I don't have a vendetta

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Despite the circumstantial evidence that you do? You have a motive, and you admit to spending a disproportionate amount of time researching LDS beliefs, and you spend a disproportionate number of posts debating against LDS theology.

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All in all, I think that strongly indicates a vendetta.

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Just a thought as an interested third party (can't say disinterested ). Gene, there are lots of times that something will catch my interest and I study up on it just out of curiousity. Then after attaining some knowledge, when the topic comes up, I actually have something to say. It has nothing to do with a vendetta. Schraf seems to be the type of person who likes to learn and she could have even studied the Mormon faith in her own search. Maybe you're reading too much into this.

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Originally posted by schrafinator:
Something is unknowable if we cannot detect it with our senses.

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This is of course presuming that we can trust our senses.

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Originally posted by schrafinator:

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I'm trying to avoid being condescending or preachy here, I'm just saying if someone is claiming a personal relationship with God, that maybe they have an extra "sense" or a divinely given "understanding".

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...or maybe they are making up a fantasy that comforts them and helps them get through their life.

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How do you tell the difference between the two?

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You can't.

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That's why I'm an Agnostic.

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This is an interesting thought though schraf. When I first read your statement that we can only know what our senses tell us, I thought of a blind person and how limited their knowledge must be if they were to rely on ONLY their own senses. They must trust others whose sense of sight is "working". They would miss out on a lot if they did not. (I realize of course that they couldn't believe everything they were told). In the same way, presupposing that there is a spiritual sense, (like forgiven's example of Elijah praying that his servant would see the heavenly host encamped around them), those whose spiritual sense is not "working" can only rely on those whose is. I wonder if we shouldn't at least be open that idea?