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Author Topic:   A Whale of a Tale
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 130 of 243 (275744)
01-04-2006 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 125 by randman
01-04-2006 11:19 AM


evolution as defined by...
your claim "evolution is observed" when "evolution" as defined by ToE is not, in fact, observed.
I'm dying to know, what is evolution as defined by ToE? I am positive you can't be equivocating between the idea that life has changed over time (natural history, or the evolution of life on earth) and the evolutionary mechanisms proposed by ToE to account for these changes. The mechanisms proposed (as defined by) the ToE have been observed.
This message has been edited by Modulous, Wed, 04-January-2006 04:48 PM

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Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 190 of 243 (276244)
01-05-2006 10:27 PM
Reply to: Message 179 by randman
01-05-2006 6:31 PM


Welcome to science!
The stance of evos is to make the claim, as you do, and then demand somehow others disprove it.
Isn't that how science works? Make a claim (state your hypothesis), examine the evidence, does any of the evidence contradict the claim? If not your hypothesis is tentatively true. Does your hypothesis have the power to make predictions? If so your hypothesis is tentatively true and has utility. Given that it is tentatively true and has utility, it will be used.
To maintain integrity, and to assure others that the hypothesis and its conclusions are valid science, ways in which the hypothesis (or certain conclusions drawn from the hypothesis) could be falsified are openly discussed.
To paraphrase you:
quote:
The stance of science is to make the claim, and then challenge others to disprove it.
A crude wording, but effective enough, I feel.
...it leads to evos accepting on faith all sorts of myths, hoaxes, overstatements, etc[.]
This happens to pretty much all disciplines, evolution, creationism, ID, nuclear physics, history, religion, everything really. The good thing about science is its self-correcting mechanisms, the bad thing is that those mechanisms are operated by imperfect humans.
Once again, to paraphrase:
quote:
People accept on faith all sorts of myths, hoaxes, overstatements, etc.
A system needs to be developed that can help minimize this inherent flaw of humanity. One possible system is to define what is true and to dogmatically stick to it, anyone that disagrees is simply wrong. This would be a system similar to religion, but the system has its weaknesses, and what is defined as true tends to drift and change due to the aforementioned failings of mankind.
Another system would be accepting that what we think of as true one day could be shown to be false the next. As such all truths are tentatively concluded, and open to falsification. Ladies and gentlemen, may I introduce to you...Science!

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Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 223 of 243 (277195)
01-08-2006 3:04 PM


Cetaceans
I've been looking into pakicetus and its classification as a cetacean. I still have plenty to learn. Here is a picture, which is blatantly stolen from here
The top left picture is a typical land mammals ear structure, the top right is pakicetus and the bottom right is a modern whale the one between pakicetus and modern whale in appearance is Rodhocetus.
So I'm going to paraphrase the page somewhat for y'all. The principle difference between pakicetus' ear and land mammals is the inner ear cavity. First look at the land mammal, see the area marked 'TyBo'? That's the the tympanic bone. Follow it around the bottom of the diagram and back up towards the 'MeTy' (medial synostosis). In land mammals this is connected to the area labelled 'Per', the periotic bone. In cetaceans, there is a gap, the medial synostosis is missing. This gap is present in Pakicetus.
The part that is labelled 'inv' is the involucrum, a structure that replaces the medial synostosis in pakicetus and other cetaceans. As far as I am aware, only cetaceans have this structure, but I could be wrong. Randman has stated on several occasions that the unique cetacean characteristics found in pakicetus are found in other non-cetacean mammals, I would be keen to see which other organisms have this particular feature.

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Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 236 of 243 (277559)
01-09-2006 1:01 PM
Reply to: Message 234 by Nuggin
01-09-2006 12:06 PM


Randman is right
This is getting offtopic.
There is an open topic where it is on topic though (not too many posts left, but it could be a springboard?)
Try reading this post from Jerry which gets into the nitty gritty. IIRC randman basically agrees with Jerry, but they have some differences of opinion.

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