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Author | Topic: Does Allah = Moon God? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
SuperNintendo Chalmers Member (Idle past 5864 days) Posts: 772 From: Bartlett, IL, USA Joined: |
I agree with you that there isn't a huge deal of importance to the fact that Islam derived from the moon god, since Allah has come to stand for the one creator God, but it certainly is part of the historical picture of Islam along with many others that show it to have man-made origins. Beyond that, the topic is controversial just because so many people adamantly insist that it isn't true. If you are going to concede it, we can call the subject done. It is an undeniable fact that all religions have man-made origins. This doesn't make Islam different from any other religion.
OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message or continue in this vein. AdminPD This message has been edited by AdminPD, 05-01-2006 12:33 PM
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SuperNintendo Chalmers Member (Idle past 5864 days) Posts: 772 From: Bartlett, IL, USA Joined: |
The point is that the scriptures say different things ABOUT HIM, and in that case the people who are following those different scriptures are worshipping different concepts of God, which is the same thing as worshipping different Gods because there is NO OTHER WAY TO KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT GOD. This is PURE opinion. To make this claim about god(s) is nothing more than pure hubris. Who are you to say how someone can know of god? Who are you to say that multiple concepts of god can not be correct? Is god not infinite? Is god not omnipotent? Why could he not be many and yet singular at the same time? Who are we to say anything about him/she/it/them? Either your god is limited or he isn't. I'm not sure why you feel you can make god's rules for him. I'm sure he can do it find by himself. You claim to know the mind of god! We all know that Allah started out as the same god as the judeo-christian god. Perhaps god in his infinite wisdom presents different aspects to differenct peoples. Either god is infinite or he isn't.
OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message or continue in this vein. AdminPD This message has been edited by AdminPD, 05-01-2006 12:34 PM
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SuperNintendo Chalmers Member (Idle past 5864 days) Posts: 772 From: Bartlett, IL, USA Joined: |
I apologize for my off-topic posts. Sometimes the dark side is trong in it's temptation
So, I found out where this silliness is coming from; our good friend, and diamond mine operator, Pat Robertson. So I guess there actually are people who take him seriously. Well, the world never ceases to amaze me; that's for sure. Not Found (#404) | History News
Network from the end of the article:
The word "al-lah," "al-ilah," simply means "the god" in Arabic (thus mirroring the New Testament's term for God -- ho theos, "the god"). Christians and Jews writing in Arabic have always used the term "Allah" for the Judeo-Christian God; indeed, as the 6th-century Umm al-Jimal inscription in Jordan shows, Arabic Christians were using "Allah" as a term for God before Islam even arose. "Allah" means God the One and Only. Period.
Now it may well be true that the term "Allah" was also used in pre-Islamic times for a less impressive deity, a member of a polytheistic pantheon. But so what? As is well known, exactly the same is true of the Hebrew terms "Yahweh," "El," and "Elohim," used in the Bible as names of God. Early Jewish tradition assigns Yahweh a wife, Asherah. The term "Yahweh" was used by the Moabites as another name for the Canaanite god Ba'al; indeed, "El," "-ilah," and "Ba'al" are all obvious cognates, and are recognised by Biblical scholars as having a common origin. And the word "Elohim" shows its polytheistic origins in its very structure: it is the result of adding a masculine plural ending to a feminine singular noun (thereby strangely deriving a masculine singular: "he is the goddess-men"). If Islam has pagan roots, so do Judaism and Christianity. The fact that the Arabic term for God once referred merely to one god among many no more proves that Muslims today are worshipping a moon god than the fact that the Hebrew terms for God once referred merely to one god among many proves that Jews and Christians today are worshipping a tribal deity with many wives. Etymology is not theology. St. Paul had more sense than many of his modern followers when he accepted, as legitimate references to the Christian God, pagan Greek verses describing Zeus as an immaterial, monotheistic creator. What god one worships presumably has more to do with how one conceives of her than with what names one calls her. [For any Kripkeans who may be reading this: no, I'm not rejecting causal origin as irrelevant; I think it's one, but only one, element in the disjunctive complex that determines a term's meaning. But that's a story for another day.] So how does Islam conceive of God? Do Muslims in any interesting sense worship a "moon god"? The answer lies in the Qur'an, verses 6.75-79: Thus did we show Abraham the kingdom of the heavens and the earth, that he might be among those possessing certainty: When the night grew dark upon him, he beheld a star. He said: This is my Lord. But when it set, he said: I love not things that set. And when he saw the moon rising in splendour, he said: This is my Lord. But when it set, he said: If my Lord had not guided me I should certainly be one of those who have gone astray. And when he saw the sun rising in splendour, he said: This is my Lord! This is the greatest! But when it set he cried: O my people! Behold, I am no longer deceived by your false encumbrances. For surely I have turned my face toward him who created the heavens and the earth, as one by nature upright, and I am not of the idolaters. In other words: moon god my ass.
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RickJB Member (Idle past 5020 days) Posts: 917 From: London, UK Joined: |
Pat Robertson... Not surprised in the least, I'm afraid to say.
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lfen Member (Idle past 4708 days) Posts: 2189 From: Oregon Joined: |
Hence this thread. This thread purpose is solely to debate the Allah = Moon God controversy Turns out this is a political controversy apparently started by Pat Robertson. No one has demonstrated any scholarly reason to believe Allah = Moon God and many have shown why that is nonsense. This has been polictal religious agit prop all the way. I'm signing off this debate. I have no problem with criticism of Islam, or any other religion but it's a waste of time if it's foolish nonsense like this put together to sell over television. yuck. lfen
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I don't think it's political at all, in the sense of a lie, which is how you mean it. I've heard that the moon god was the original from many sources and never from Pat Robertson. Seems to me the place I first heard it might have been a book about Islam by George Grant, Blood on the Moon, which I'll see if I can find.*
However, I just looked it up in another book I haven't yet read, Reasoning from the Scriptures with Muslims by Ron Rhodes (Harvest House 2002), and no moon god is mentioned. From Chapter 6 Allah -- the God of Islam:
... The term "Allah" is probably derived from al illahwhich means "the god." ... [P]eople in pre-Islamic Meccan culture believed in many different gods, a view known as plytheism. For the most part, local and tribal gods received the most attention, and the people of that time often carved images of these gods and made blood sacrifices to them. They also believed in angels and fairies, who were considered kind spirits. Among this pantheon was the chief God, who went by the name of Allah. Before Muhammad even arrived on the scene, Allah was already known as the supreme deity or "high God" to the Bedouin peoples of northern Arabia. This "high God" was considered to be the creator and sustainer of the universe, the one who brought help in time of need. As Muhammad grew from boyhood to manhood, he increasingly became convinced that Allah was the only true God, and all others were mere idols... ABE:* Found the book and it has no mention of the moon god. The reference to blood on the moon is Biblical and the book is about the Middle East Crisis. This message has been edited by Faith, 05-01-2006 05:30 PM This message has been edited by Faith, 05-01-2006 05:40 PM
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Turns out this is a political controversy apparently started by Pat Robertson. No one has demonstrated any scholarly reason to believe Allah = Moon God and many have shown why that is nonsense. it's unlikely IMHO that it's a political issue when Pat Robertson's name enters the discussion. Far more likely it's just another way for Pat to con the gullible out of more money. He has a great con going, one of the best moneymakers on GOD's Green Earth and everytime he can create another one of these non-issues like he did with teh Xmas nonsense he just hears that cash register ring.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
Arach writes: to quote my good friend ray martinez, "inability to refute." look buz, you brought it up, as a difference. saying you're not going to talk about it when it's brought up that they are actually the same is what we call a "cop out." you can't pretend your argument is valid if you ignore it when it turns out that it works equally well against you. that's called "hypocrisy." 1. What this thread is about is whether Allah was the moon god. That has been shown by documentation to be the case. Jehovah nor Jesus had nothing to do with Allah and the rest of the Mecca gods. Unless you can prove otherwise, you have no case. 2. This thread is definitely not about whether the NT god is one and the same as the OT god. IF YOU WANT TO DEBATE THAT, DO YOUR OWN THREAD. DO NOT HIJACK THIS THREAD. IT'S AGAINST Forum Guidelines. BUZSAW B 4 U 2 Z Y BUZ SAW
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
AdminPD writes: Please continue on topic and leave old off-topic battles behind.Does Allah = Moon God? Thanks very much AdminPD. You're good!! This thread is only a couple of days old and already over half spent. My time is very limited as I need to take advantage of the good weather outside which leaves me limited here. Hopefully we can slow a bit and hone it down to topic to concentrate on that. Keep posting folks. You're all appreciated, but please do keep it on topic as AdminPD admonishes. Thanks. BUZSAW B 4 U 2 Z Y BUZ SAW
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
Ifen, Pat Robertson is just one of multitudes who may understand the Allah/moon god connection. I don't know. I haven't read him on this topic. I haven't even found time to read the whole thread yet. He factors in zero here and has/had nothing to do with this thread. You're using him as your strawman. Debate the significant topic issues. They have nothing to do with this man, so far as documentation of their validity.
BUZSAW B 4 U 2 Z Y BUZ SAW
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
SNC writes: We all know that Allah started out as the same god as the judeo-christian god. Perhaps god in his infinite wisdom presents different aspects to differenct peoples. To support this claim you need to refute the evidence we've produced to the contrary concerning the history of the god Allah relative to the moon. I'm not aware that you've done that yet, but then I'm still catching up. Have I missed something so far? BUZSAW B 4 U 2 Z Y BUZ SAW
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
You're asking, "Is there anything left that is on topic? There is a whole lot of on topic business to take care of.
1. Specific vidence which has been produced relating the Quranic god, Allah historically to the pagan moon god has yet to be soundly refuted. 2. Since the god Allah relates historically to the pagan moon god, the claims that this god is one and the same as the Biblical god Jehovah are falsified. 3. Unless someone can document that the Biblical god Jehovah also has a moon god historical origin, the Biblical god Jehovah has no bearing relative to this topic. BUZSAW B 4 U 2 Z Y BUZ SAW
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
RDG writes: as for allah being a moon god, its irrelevent if they do not worship him as a moon god,even if they use the moon as a symbol. 1. It's relevence depends on the history of the god. If Islamic clerics merely claim a pagan god one and the same as the Biblical god so as to gain converts, that doesn't make it so. 2. That they do use the moon as a symbol on their mosques, et al and Christians do not should tell you something about which side of this debate you should be on. BUZSAW B 4 U 2 Z Y BUZ SAW
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
1. Specific vidence which has been produced relating the Quranic god, Allah historically to the pagan moon god has yet to be soundly refuted. The Qur'an itself proves beyond any question that the site linked in the OP is simply lying, more Christian Fundamentalist lies ands misrepresentation and shows a total ignorance of the authors about Islam. From Message 18 of this thread:
Read Sura 6, 7 and particularly 10, 12 and 13 where Allah is said to have created the Moon and to command the Moon and Sun to move in their courses. The claims made in the OP and in the title of this thread are simply stupid. They show a total ignorance of both Christianity and of Islam and should be treated with all due contempt. The silly claim in the OP was been refuted over 150 messages ago and this absurd thread needs to be closed. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1374 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
1. What this thread is about is whether Allah was the moon god. hey, i have an idea. stay on topic then.
That has been shown by documentation to be the case. i've heard conjecture based on next to nothing, while ignoring all of the evidence against your conjecture. that is not "shown .. to be the case."
Jehovah nor Jesus had nothing to do with Allah and the rest of the Mecca gods. Unless you can prove otherwise, you have no case. the title for yahweh in arabic is "allah." really. the god that jesus prayed to, in his native tongue, was "allaha."
2. This thread is definitely not about whether the NT god is one and the same as the OT god. IF YOU WANT TO DEBATE THAT, DO YOUR OWN THREAD. DO NOT HIJACK THIS THREAD. IT'S AGAINST Forum Guidelines. buz, you cannot hijack your own thread. you brought it up. not me. if you don't want to talk about it, don't bring it up. but that is STILL not my point. my point is that the polytheistic origins of islam are no different than the polytheistic origins of judaism -- both camps deny it fervently. so you citing it, while in turn denying the polytheistic origins of your own faith (for the same exact reasons) amounts to hypocritical mud-slinging. if you cannot accept that your own religion originates in polytheist traditions, why do you expect the muslims to acknowledge the same of their religion? why call them liars, when you do the very same thing?
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