It revises the very same polytheist moon god Allah as was worshipped at Mecca before Islam into Mohammed's monotheist deity. As I said, Mohammed had no conversion. He converted his pagan deity. You call this disasociation?
More assertions. The Qu'ran does not say that Muhammed converted Sin, and got rid of the other gods. The Qu'ran clearly states that the Allah in the Qu'ran is not of the polytheists but the one true God revealed to Abraham, Moses, Jacob, etc etc.
I'm not sure exactly how clear you need the Qu'ran to be. It makes a clear dissasociation from polytheism on several occasions.
I have provided the evidence that the Qu'ran disasociates, and all you do is repeat that Muhammed did not convert, with no evidence. In charitable terms its conjecture, and being less nice its an absurd position given the evidence.
For one reason only - to proselyte Christians into the Muslim fold and empower Islam as the only religion as the Quran advocates.
But what about the Muslims? The Muslims believe it to be the word of God itself. Thus they have to believe that their God is the God of the Scriptures, Jews and Christians. Since they believe in the God of the Scriptures, since they believe that Allah is not of the polytheists, but the one true God with no equal, who revealed himself to the prophets...then they by definition don't believe in Sin, unless you think that Sin revealed himself to Abraham.
There is no evidence that Muhammed tried to convert the Christians to the moon God, there is a lot of evidence that he tried to do a lot of converting to a God who was very much like the God of the Old Testament. The people of the time that experienced this growing cult thought it was the Old Testament stuff revised.
It just doesn't make sense, Buz. It is quite clear that the Qu'ran says that the Allah that should be worshipped is the one in Scripture, not the moon god, not a sun god and not any other type of god. There is only one God, Abraham's God. This doesn't make up a small part of the Qu'ran, its entirely fundamental to it, and as such the Muslim faith.
You're going to need to show actual evidence of the motivation behind Muhammed's activity, otherwise you are just involving yourself in conjecture that suits your beliefs.
You're getting pickey here. Islamists are Muslims. Muslim clerics and leaders do not tolerate the proclamation of the Bible and/or the Bible's god Jehovah in Muslam lands. How many times do I need to repeat this?
No, Islamists is a political term. Muslims have no problem with the Bible. The Qu'ran refers you to the Bible on several occasions!
As per usual, Mohammed applies the scriptures only when he can do so to his advantage and the promotion of his own book and his own god. Talk is cheap. In practice he and his followers all pick and choose only what scriptures fit their cause. Why must Bibles need be smuggled into many Muslim nations?
Does it matter when Mohammed 'applies the scripture'? Obviously from an Islamic point of view the Bible cannot be relied upon, but it is something that should be read. I've only heard of a few Muslim countries that have ever had problems with Bibles, maybe there are more. That just highlights something else I have been saying: fundamentalism and theocracy are bad.
Similar absurdities happened under Christian fundamentalism and theocracy. Its one of those things.
Yes. Why? Because you people who have yet to substantially refute keep insisting your same falacies.
You haven't substantiated anything that hasn't been refuted. You want me to substantiate something, ask. I cannot believe you want me to substantiate that Muslims believe the Holy Bible is corrupt. The 'why' doesn't matter, all that matters is that they do.
There are thousands of gods/allahs/elohim, including others of note. Allah doesn't cut it for identifying with the Bible, especially when there is so much opposition between the two religions due to the doctrinal differences of the respective gods and their prophets. WHY DOES iSLAM REJECT JEHOVAH? PLAIN AND SIMPLE. THEIR GOD IS THE PAGAN MOON GOD OF MOHAMMED'S ANCESTORY. HE NEVER EVER REJECTED HIS POLYISTIC FAMILY DEITY, ALLAH.
Well, the Qu'ran does not reject YHWH, it tells us to worship Him, and how to worship Him. It doesn't call him YHWH, but an approximate Arabic equivalent al-Quayyum. This is a bit like you calling Him Jehovah.
Muhammed quite blatantly rejected his polytheistic family deity - he march a 10,000 strong army against his own tribe to wrestle control from them of Mecca. When they surrendered he destroyed all the pagan idols and re-dedicated Mecca to his Allah, not theirs.
Mohammed after the conquest of Mecca writes:
"There is no god but Allah. He has no associate. He has made good His promise that He held to his bondman and helped him and defeated all the confederates. Bear in mind that every claim of privilege, whether that of blood or property is abolished except that of the custody of the Ka'aba and of supplying water to the pilgrims. Bear in mind that for any one who is slain the blood money is a hundred camels. People of Quraish, surely God has abolished from you all pride of the time of ignorance and all pride in your ancestry, because all men are descended from Adam, and Adam was made of clay."
Did Sin create man out of clay? I'm fairly sure Muhammed is clear as to who Allah is, not one of the pagans they were worshipping but the God of Abraham that made Adam from clay. Maybe, in Muhammed's mind, Sin was a perversion of the one True God, a result of the time of ignorance. I believe that possibility has been discussed - in a similar way to the perversion from Noah's time that devolved into polythiesm.
Then pray tell, why is it in the OT manuscripts over 6000 times?? Jehovah is not Biblically generic for all gods as is elohim/god. It applies only to the one god. What is the proper name of the Muslim god/allah/elohim? It certainly is not Jehovah. Do you understand what the term proper name means in English grammer?
So, because the OT refers to God as YHWH a lot that means that it is name? Surely then, if repitition maketh a name, God is God's name? It's far more common. YHWH just means 'I am that I am', its hardly a name, its a definition. The same definition is given in the Qu'ran, but in Arabic.
There are 99 names for Allah, all of them descriptions, like 'I am that I am', and one of them is pretty much the same self-referential name.
the bottom line is that the only source you have for any of your claims has been shown to get its fundamentals wrong. Allah is defined. In the Qu'ran and with his actions Muhammed was clearly not worshipping the same god as his Pagan peers. Do you have any more reputable sources that we call on? It seems odd that the thread is almost over and you've only repeated yourself over and over again, with no regard to what Muslims believe, what the Qu'ran says, Muhammed's historical activities and the opinions of contemporary non-Muslims.
Your basis is that Muhammed's tribe was pagan (he sent an army against them).
and
The chief god of the pantheon was called Allah (so was the god of the Christians and Jews, and the Qu'ran explains which one is meant).
Everything else you've put forward is conjecture which I know there is no evidence to justify.
edit: Removed a little word that changed the meaning in a big way.
This message has been edited by Modulous, Sat, 06-May-2006 06:05 PM
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