The Fires of Hell Have Gone Out: No Eternal Torment

Ringo, How come the beast and the false prophet were not all consumed up after 1,000 years but still had to look forward to more burning torment "forever and ever?" (Compare Rev. 19:20 with 20:10)And "Well, Revelation is too symbolic you know?" is not an answer.You can also take a crack at answering Message 122.This message has been edited by jaywill, 05-07-2006 05:27 PMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 05-07-2006 05:27 PMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 05-07-2006 05:28 PM

iano, Tell them iano. Tell them.

Ringo, Even if you do not totally understand it you can comment on what the writer seems to be trying to communicate.I don't argue that Revelation has nothing difficult to understand in it. The two passages that I presented are not that difficult - two men went alive into a place of punishment. And 1,000 years latter they are still there waiting for the punishment to continue forever.What is the writing conveying? That they were consumed so as to be no more? Or that 1,000 years latter they were still undergoing torment?The latter is clearly what the writer is portraying. And that is whether YOU like it or not. Then comment on Isaiah 66:24"Then they will go forth and look on the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against Me; For their worm will not die, Nor will their fire be quenched;"How come their fire will NOT be quenched? I thought the fire is quenched when they are all burnt up?Hiding behind the Jewish concept will not give you an escape route here.This message has been edited by jaywill, 05-07-2006 05:51 PM

So Matthew 25:41 really means "Go away from Me, you who are cursed into the [TEMPORARY] fire prepared for the devil and his angels?"And it should not read as it does - "Go away from Me, you who are cursed into the ETERNAL fire prepared for the devil and his angels?"And "[T]hey shall reign forever and ever" means they shall reign for a temporary time?And "tormented day and night forever and ever" likewise means tormented for a temporary time?

Purpledawn, I think this is a fair point. And I have not yet answered it well. I'll get to it.But first this: But what if we turn out NOT to be His children?Can we be His creation yet not be His children? The Scripture indicates that some people He created are not His children:"Jesus said to them, If God were your Father you would love Me; for I came forth out of God and have come from Him ... You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father." (See John 8:42-44)These people were of "mankind." Yet Jesus said their father was the devil and not God. Are they in danger of torment then?This message has been edited by jaywill, 05-07-2006 06:35 PMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 05-07-2006 06:35 PM

I could easily write 100 posts explaining the symbols in the book of Revelation.It is clear that "lake of fire" is not something to be desired. And it is clear that being there forever is not good. This is going to take us off the topic. It is not necessary. Torment for five months indicates the duration of torment. Torment forever and ever also indicates the duration of torment.It is as simple as that. Weak. Prove that the lake of fire into which all those whose names are not written in the book of life is ANOTHER lake of fire beside that which the beast and the false prophet are cast, with Satan.Then prove that there is any reason why we should assume the others cast into the lake of fire beside the beast and the false prophet, should be more comfortable than them.On what basis do you assume the place is different or the result is different between Rev. 20:10 and Rev. 20:15 which says:"And if ANYONE was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire" (Rev. 20:15).Why should we believe that their result should be different from the specific people mentioned in verse 10?This message has been edited by jaywill, 05-07-2006 06:54 PM

Purpledawn, Wait a minute. You put forth a concept that God would not torment His children.There are passages that indicate that some of mankind are not His children. It is on topic to discuss if such ones, not being children of God, are in danger of torment.Why do you say it is not on the topic?This message has been edited by jaywill, 05-07-2006 07:17 PM

Purpledawn, So the overall message is not composed of individual verses?This doesn't make sense.Besides this you made it clear that you don't UNDERSTAND the business about the men being tormented for five months. It does not say they are warned for five months. It says that they are tormented five months. In fact the torment is so bad that they want to die and cannot.Now, we may argue about the nature of locusts and their stings and all that. But the communication is quite clear that the duration of suffering will be five months.Latter we see the duration of suffering is forever and ever. I think you are obfuscating away from the question.

Purpledawn, It is related to the topic. And I believe that you realize that.If there is no "eternal punishment" should we also believe that there is no "eternal Spirit?" (Hebrews 9:14) And if not, why not?If there is no "eternal punishment" then is there also no "King eternal" (1 Tim. 1:17)? If not, then why not?Is there also no "eternal salvation," (Heb. 5:9) no "eternal redemption," (Heb. 9:12) and no "eternal inheritance" (Heb. 9:15)? Is there also no "eternal power" (Rom.1:20)?. Is there no "eternal glory" (2 Tim. 2:10)?If there is no eternal punishment then why should we believe any of these preceeding things ARE eternal?`This message has been edited by jaywill, 05-07-2006 07:48 PMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 05-07-2006 07:48 PMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 05-07-2006 07:49 PM

Purpledawn, The question is what in the world are YOU talking about, denying the clear and plain passages of the word of God?

Pdawn, So eternal punishment is not eternal torment?Write it out clearly before I discuss it. Commit yourself.

Pdawn, Does it take that much time?I think you're wise to adopt a more minimalist approach. I mean lay low and write less and less. Keeping your comments real brief as to not stake out too definite a position. No position is much easier to defend.I notice your posts are coming with fewer and fewer words, one liners, cautious, witholding your opinion.

DorfMan, The Bible does not allow me to believe that in all cases the punishment is not the punishing. I am prevented from adopting this kind of understanding, for instance, in Rev.14:11:The NIV Greek Interlinear has below the Greek in English - "And the smoke of the torment of them unto ages of ages goes up, and they have not rest day and night the [ones] worshipping the beast and the image of it ..."Now that passage does not permit me to adopt your interpretation that the punishING is terminated. If their tormenting terminates, then the smoke of their torment would also cease. If their torment ended any continuing smoke ascending would NOT be the smoke of thier torment. As it is clearly uttered by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, the smoke of their torment ascending "forever and ever" communicates that "forever and ever" they are tormented.If this is not the case then why should I believe that "And He [Christ] will reign forever and ever" (Rev. 11:15) either?Revelation 9:5 says "And it was given them that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months ...". And verse 10 says " ... and in their tails is their power to harm men for five months"I have no basis to interpret those passages that the torment and the harm will last one month, or two months, or three months, or four months. I am not allowed that understanding. What is communicated to me is that some men will be harmed for five months, tormented for five months. In the same way "tormented day and night forever and ever" does not permit me to imagine that the torment is only five months or six months or one hundred months. It only permits me to understand that it is being stated that the number of months of days is without end - "day and night forever and ever". And this would be in complete harmony with the phrase [b]"the smoke of their tormenting goes up forever and ever" ( Rev. 14:11,Recovery Version NT). We may assume that the fire devouring them means that they are killed. But we are also clearly warned by Christ that God has the authority to do something further to sinners "after killing""And I say to you My friends, Do not fear those who kill the body and AFTERWARDS have nothing more that they can do.

​

But I will show you whom you should fear: fear HIm who, after killing, has the authority to cast into Gehenna; yes, I tell you fear this One." (Luke 12:4,5)1.) Christ's intent here is to teach that there is danger to be feared "AFTERWARDS" when it comes to the killing of the body.2.) This fear must be based on the ADDITIONAL authority that God has, which man does not have.3.) That additional authority is the authority to do something else "after killing".Now the problem is what could Jesus mean by "after killing" we should fear the danger of being cast into Gehenna. It is far less likely to me that He means "Afer killing God has the authority to dump your dead corpse into an undignified place like the city dump for your corpse to become ashes there."This might be His meaning? But I judge that it is highly unlikely that it is. Cannot man "after killing" ALSO dump your corpse into the city dump? Is that not within man's authority to do? So the Gehenna of fire must be being used by Jesus to symbolize a trash dump of GREATER authority rather than the same as civil authority.Now we come back to Revelation 20:9 which you quoted. I interpret the Bible to teach that after the body is devoured by the fire falling out of the sky, God has additional authority to harm those thus physically devoured. I am not permitted to understand that His authority to harm those enemies of His is terminated once they were devoured by falling fire. This is one of my favorite verses on the subject. Thanks for finding it for me. However, it only says that it is strange that God should have to judge. It does not say that He will not judge. It is only states that for Him to have to do so is strange.It may indeed be very strange to God that He should have to punish the lost forever and ever. I am not allowed to think that because of this He will not do what He says He will do if we are not saved through His salvation in Christ. In fact it is more strange that we should not fear His authority and believe the gospel that we may be saved from our sins. I do see great love of God in the whole Bible. But I do not see God giving up His eternal justice for the sake of His great love. It is His great love that the judgment for sin has fallen on Christ on the cross that, believing we might be saved.That God has no pleasure in our not believing and perishing is not at all surprising. I'm extending your reference to the New Testament subject we are discussing. Generally speaking, God is not delighted that He should have to punish the unrepentent. That does not mean that He will not do what He has no delight in. If this is your reason for believing that He will NOT cast the unsaved into eternal punishment then by the same token you should teach that Jesus did not come to annhilate them either. Therefore He will not annhilate anyone? You should be consistent in this.This message has been edited by jaywill, 05-08-2006 04:57 AM

No, I don't think so. That's for teenage love songs. (I've been happily married for about 28 years) Well, to be fair (before getting into a word study) I realize that in the Old Testament there are some things that God said would last forever (I believe) which I question. However, all things considered, it is difficult to misunderstand that some things He said are forever are to be terminated.Am I to believe that " ... His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever" (Rev. 11:15) really means that God and Christ will only reign temporarily?On what basis do I assume forever and ever applies literally to Christ reigning but figuratively to God's enemies being tormented?Before I go further - Have you in the past also gone by the tag elsewhere "Tentmaker?"This message has been edited by jaywill, 05-08-2006 04:40 AMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 05-08-2006 04:42 AM

Purpledawn, 1.) In your opinion is the death sentence handed down by some civil authorities "eternal punishment"?2.) Why do governments of the world not discribe capital punishment as "eternal punishment"?3.) Is it possible to have "punishment" without suffering?4.) If a person does not exist, is that person suffering?5.) If a person does not exist is he undergoing punishment?6.) Are all non-existent people being punished at this moment?7.) Can a non-existent person undergo "eternal punishment"?8.) If a tormented person suddenly ceases to exist is he being "tormented day and night forever and ever"? Please answer these questions:1.) Does the phrase "tormented day and night forever and ever" mean "eternal torment" to you?2.) Does the Bible teach that some people will undergo the circumstance of "tormented day and night forever and ever", for example " ... and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever" (Rev. 20:10)?3.) If so then does the Bible teach that these punished ones undergo "eternal torment"? This has been responded to already.This message has been edited by jaywill, 05-08-2006 05:54 AMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 05-08-2006 05:59 AMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 05-08-2006 06:00 AM