Define faith?

Faith is a response to God as revealed to us daily through human messengers.The scope of the Bible vastly out-does that of any other religious book. Creation, the flood, languages, races, the revelation of God, salvation and the future are all accounted for. Thematic consistency and of historical events across 2000 years is wihtout comparison. Archeoogical eveidence is staggering: The families we are all born to reveal the Christian God. The Christian God is one of fatherhood, brotherhood and even marriage of a kind (Christ and his bride the church).Other gods are distant and mystical. The Christian God is near to every heart and practical. The classic fire and brimestone message, while containing truth is actually a dsitortion of Christianity. Throughout the ages we are saved through our responses to Christ as we know him: Jesus is the way but in the absence of the direct revelation of the last 2000 years we still meet Him through our parents, families, communities, bosses and authorities:1 Peter 2:13 Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every authority instituted among men: whether to the king, as the supreme authority,
Ephesians 5:22 Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord.
Colossians 3:20 Children, obey your parents in all things: for this is well pleasing unto the Lord.
2 Cor 4:6 He has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of God's glory in the face of Jesus Christ.
I Cor 11:3 But I want you to know that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of the woman, and God is the head of Christ.It says: Christ is the head of every man.Our responses, at all levels, throughout the ages, to the marred headship we have as children and adults is part of our meeting with the Christian God. We learn to reposnd with a right attitude to marred headship becasue we ourselves are marred, our parents and authorities are marred and Christ himself submitted himself to marring and weakness.Christianity works becasue the cross turns apparent weakness into strength. The cross was not a plan B but it is the way the Godhead lives and interacts: [This message has been edited by Tranquility Base, 01-13-2003]

erik6Firstly let me just let me say even more plainly than I did earlier that the most important thing for all of us to do is listen to our consciences and those around us who our conscience tells us have been given to speak into our lives. I believe that the Bible does say this (I wont quote the verse again as requsted by you!) and it makes sense for this to be the most imporant thing to God.So I am almost happy to say nothing other than that. However, in following my conscience and those around me I have become convinced that God is specifically the Christian God and so I recommend this God to you. So your question is then why I am convinced. It is partly due to the Bible (see my previous post) and partly due to my daily interactions with God in prayer and situations and partly due to the miraculous and near miraculous. All together I am utterly convinced of the Christian God.I have experienced the events that Scripture associates with conversion. A conscience pang of guilt of sin, a conscience comfort of the Holy Spirit of forgiveness and love, the experience of being 'filled with the Spirit', including the outward signs described in Acts 2 and since then the love, direction and disciplining of the Father, Son and HS.I found that although I don't know what is around the corner, when I look back on my life so far it is not random and I can see the guiding hand of God. In addition, since I came to beleive I have, on a handful of occasions, experienced undeniable miracles that unfortunately I can't prove to anyone but myself.[This message has been edited by Tranquility Base, 01-14-2003]

Erik This may seem plausible to you - consciousness bia emergence, conviction by psycology etc. Although I appreciate that our brains operate by neurosceince I also believe we are a triune being as God is (body, soul, spirit). As I mentioned I have personally seen the miraculous since I believed so I know you are wrong. But I believe you are just as wrong in looking at creation and thinking it could arrive in this state by chance and adaptation. It is Biblical reasoning + conscience + life events/responses + the miraculous. If God is God that is how it works. Scripture does not support this. I do not support 99% of what has gone on in Christianity! There is a Biblical 'order' to living, but not one of oppression. I submit to both Christ and worldly authorities analagously but differently to the way a child submits to their parents. This is how God created it to be. Families are a picture of the Godhead. Even the submission of a wife to a husband is pictured in the churches submission to Christ but look what glory the 'Bride of Christ' is revealed in in Rev 12/13. The husband lays down his life for his wife as Christ laid down his. This is how Christian family living should also be. It is not oppression but God's way. When corrupted by man it is very evil, I agree.[This message has been edited by Tranquility Base, 01-20-2003]

PE
If you read my posts in this thread you'll see that I'm actually trying to explain why faith is geographical and why to some extent it doesn't matter. While I 100% beleive that Christ is the only way, it is clear that Scripture also points out that, down through the ages, we can all respond to a marred face of Christ's headship in the creation, our parents, families, authorities and situations. So whilst God blessed certain of us with a direct revelation of Christ I don't think that God left the rest of the world without a witness of Christ. Those who want everything neat and tidy may prefer the fire and brimestone God or that Christianity is nonsense but I believe the Biblical God has sufficiently explained the conundrum and that neither of these interpretations is correct.Christ said that even a natural father 'does not give a stone to a son who asks for bread'. Creation and people reveal God, the creator and redeemer. Acts 17 tells us that God accepted pagan worship over the ages. But when God gives us a direct view of himself then I'll take that view every time. In our scenario the world has creation and families, the OT directly had God the Father and the NT directly revealed the Son and HS.I'll just post some of Acts 17 again. It is clear that the Biblical God wants to see us find God wherever (and whenever) we are: In the above passage (vs 27) it says 'God did this' so that men could seek and find Him. Did what? Ordained the places and times of all peoples of the Earth (vs 26)! God does care about all peoples of the Earth pre and post the Christian era. This is confirmed in plain English in vs 29 & 30.[This message has been edited by Tranquility Base, 01-19-2003]

ScrafThe way the secular world measures equality is a very shallow yard stick in our opinion. It's all about 'having ones own way'. In Christianity life is about living up to the potential God has for us, not what we think we want. What God promises is that the potential he has for every individual is the best we could have. One simply should trust Him and then he will prove Himself to you on that issue.To you the Christian woman's role is not 'good enough'. I believe God would say that you mock a truly wonderful role that is 100 times better than apparently sucessful living as democratically equal head of the family. That simply is not the way God created families to be. It is not truly satisfying for thewoman or of benefit to the family. When men open their eyes and women fill out the sphere of their role familes really work.Democratic equality is not the seed of identity that God births into women. To get what 'seems nice' women sell their birth rights. Exactly the same thing happens for men who are chauvinisits, lazy, disinterested in taking up their role in family life or in providing for their families.What may seem like a fundamentalist disaster to you is in fact people beginning to take of their masks and be who they are. This present, and possibly final 'reformation' of the church is primarily family-based and not primarily doctrinal.

SchrafThis practical word of the gospel is hard to take. I agree. I have struggled with who I am at recently and have had to hear from human faces of Christ.How do you think Christ felt when he gradually realized who he was? I bet he had laid eyes on some potential wives or may have wanted to become Nazereth's best carpenter. But at the same time he gradually found out who he was and what his call was. It is no different for us. We all take up our cross and do it for what is on the other side of it. It goes against everything natural that is in us and yet the word in our hearts is sufficent to direct us if we chose to listen.I agree it is an 'icky' gospel. I have personally experienced the ick. I am also experiencing the victory on the other side of the cross also. If this message did not offend you there would be somethign wrong with you. It offended me too.[This message has been edited by Tranquility Base, 01-21-2003]

SchrafI'm just reflecting what I'm reading, hearing and experiencing. Yes, it is my strong conviction is that it is for all of us but I'm not going to force it on a single person. Everyone is dignified by the right to their own response to the gospel.

ChavalonThere is much clear evidence of a far greater richness of the Bible than the Quran.The Bible reveals a God that relates within himself and with mankind just as people interact within families and communities: fatherhood, brotherhood and 'marriage' (Christ to the church). The Quran reveals primarily a legalistic God. The Biblical God reveals that legalism operates only when grace is taken for granted. In other words when we respond in right attitude we automatically live in a godly manner. But ultimately the evidence comes from experience.

Schraf Somehting I have noticed about 'born-again' churches, both in the US and here in Australia, is that they often also proclaim a 'prosperity' or 'name it and claim it' teaching. Whilst I would class my church within the renewal category the direction we believe God has taken us is down an 'accountability' direction and this has distanced us from 'prosperity doctrine' churches.What I am saying is that a lot of 'born agains' have slipped into a 'self-mode' which may have led to the high divorce rates. These self-based teachings bypass the practcal daily aspects of the cross I have been talking about IMO. In short I do not believe renewal churches are, as a whole, teaching truly accountable living. I hope that explains why this data is not a conundrum for me. The cross was 'ick' to Christ too. He wept tears of blood. We, as He did, do it for the 'joy set before us'. Easily said of course. Christ said 'take up your cross'. Does that really mean 'go to India' or does it actaully mean 'live out your identity not your fantasy'?[This message has been edited by Tranquility Base, 01-22-2003]

ChavalonDespite your reference Islam is overwhelmingly legalistic.For me creation, life, relationships and my interactons with Christ and his written word and the church speak to me of the Christian God as being real.Your experience is equally valid.I still beleive you will find the Christian God if you seek God.[This message has been edited by Tranquility Base, 01-22-2003]

SchrafWhat I will say is that when men are living accountably as men and women are living accountably as women families work. I can cite no statistics to back this up. Rather, I believe this is the grassroots key to life for families (as indeed it always has been).

SchrafThe point is that in this way of life we are all children of God - always, regardless of age. This is the key to life IMO. Men submit to human faces of Christ just as women do. Yes it is a differnt function but God does not see either the funcitons or persons lesser than another.

Schraf But men are to sumbit to men so therefore we neither have 'full adult' standing in your view (of my view!). I don't want any rights above what God wants to give me! I (now) prefer reflecting my career/life decisions to other men and willingly weighing their advice. I'm convinced this is how life is meant to be. You may like the modern view of every family locked away in its castle. I hate that way now. I open my life to those I am accountable too. We open the upbringing of our children to our entire home Bible study group. I have been taken aside by others and had harsh things said to me for the good of my children: No-one is forcing anyone to do it! We have had the occasional wife leaving a husband on the issue. That is sad but a reality. We have had men moving to other churches. That is sad too but reality. Christ wept tears of blood over his call. Agreed until God opens our eyes to an even bigger world than we imagine in my experience. It's possible but not consistent with the theme of Christ and his bride, the church or the manner in which I believe God is healing family relationships on this planet in my community.Families in the west are in a terrible state. Children do not respect parents (for good reason). They grow up unteachable and insecuare and a significant amount enter into crime drugs and unhealthy consideration for the opposite sex. Society is a mess but the book of Malachi promises that one day 'the hearts of the fathers will turn to the children and the the hearts of the children will turn to the fathers'. That is what we believe the current move of God is and that the refomation of families and families of families is the way it will happen.[This message has been edited by Tranquility Base, 02-02-2003]

SchrafWhether man or woman, submission is a weighing up. Everyone has the dignity of their own response. Sometimes advice is advice and sometimes advice is direction. It is up to the listener, whether man or woman, to respond appropriately. That is the difference between an adult Christian relationship and a child-like one. A child (of certain age) has no choice (but is age appropriately parented). An adult submits of their own free will.[This message has been edited by Tranquility Base, 02-03-2003]

SchrafThe wife fascilitates the direction of the husband putting her uniqueness and talents into it and at times she may be crucial in advising a complete change in direction. (The Lord told Abraham 'listen to your wife'). But, yes, she is not democratic joint-head of the family.