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Author Topic:   the underlying assumptions rig the debate
randman 
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Message 37 of 246 (322758)
06-17-2006 10:50 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by cavediver
06-17-2006 7:48 PM


Really?
I am simply pointing out that QM has no such mechanism.
Really, what is the mechanism for entanglement then?

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randman 
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Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 39 of 246 (322761)
06-17-2006 10:58 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Percy
06-17-2006 8:08 PM


some links
percy, here are some basic wika links related to the ideas here.
Wheeler's delayed-choice experiment - Wikipedia
In the double slit experiment, a photon passes through a double slit apparatus, in which the photon must pass either through one or the other of two slits, and then registers on a detector, which can determine where the photon reaches the detector, like an image projected on a screen. If one allows many photons to individually pass through either slit A or slit B and doesn't know which slit they passed through, an interference pattern emerges on the detector. The interference pattern indicates that the light beam is in fact made up of waves. However, if one somehow observes which of the two slits each photon actually passes through, a different result will be obtained. In this case, each photon hits the detector after going through only one slit and a single concentration of hits in the middle of the detection field. This result is consistent with light behaving as individual particles, like tiny bullets. The very odd thing about this is that a different outcome results based on whether or not the photon is observed after it goes through the slit but before it hits the detector.
In a quantum eraser experiment, one arranges to detect which one of the slits the photon passes through, but also construct the experiment in such a way that this information can be "erased" after the fact. It turns out that if one observes which slit the photon passes through, the "no interference" or particle behavior will result, which is what quantum mechanics predicts, but if the quantum information is "erased" regarding which slit the photon passed through, the photons revert to behaving like waves.
However, Kim, et al. have shown that it is possible to delay the choice to erase the quantum information until after the photon has actually hit the target. But, again, if the information is "erased," the photons revert to behaving like waves, EVEN IF THE INFORMATION IS ERASED AFTER THE PHOTONS HAVE HIT THE DETECTOR [all caps added in lieu of italics in original article].
....
How can this be? It would seem that the "choice" to observe or erase the which-path information can change the position where the photon is recorded on the detector, even after it should have already been recorded.
One explanation of this paradox would be that this is a kind of time travel. In other words, the delayed "choice" to "erase" or "observe" the which-path information of the original photon can change the outcome of an event in the past.
Delayed-choice quantum eraser - Wikipedia
Please note the reference to "the delayed "choice" to "erase" or "observe" the which-path information of the original photon can change the outcome of an event in the past."
An alternative is the many-worlds interpretation, of course, but even there, I think there are other experiments that show regardless of potentials for alternative, parallel universes, that the past is indeed affected by the present (such as just looking at more basic delayed-choice experiments or the thought experiments with entanglement and polarization).
Edited by randman, : No reason given.

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randman 
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Posts: 6367
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Message 40 of 246 (322763)
06-17-2006 11:03 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Jazzns
06-17-2006 10:54 PM


Re: QM
You fail to consider the implications that in all likelihood, some aspects of the past and perhaps most of the past has been "determined" but if just small areas have not, introducing one or the other event in the past, changes the past and over time adds up.

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randman 
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Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 42 of 246 (322775)
06-18-2006 12:14 AM


the importance of entanglement
Just as a reference, for awhile here I have emphasized entanglement as a principle dealing with the 2-slit experiment and other experiments and at times have been derided for stating that, and specifically derided for saying the principle of entanglement has overshadowed the Uncertainty principle and to prevent those sorts of arguments in this discussion, I note the following, taken from a good historical overview of QM in some respects.
Leaving aside questions of non-local action for now, the fact remains that the phenomenon known as entanglement is a real feature of our world, whatever its exact nature. For some time entanglement was thought to be important only in very special circumstances, but in the last decade or so it has been shown to be much more important than was thought - it is in fact ubiquitous in quantum mechanics, the rule rather than the exception. It turns out, for instance, that entanglement seems to be necessary to explain the results of the classic Young’s Two-Slit Experiment17, which have traditionally (but erroneously) been explained in terms of Heisenberg Uncertainty.
http://fergusmurray.members.beeb.net/Causality.html

  
randman 
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Message 43 of 246 (322778)
06-18-2006 12:19 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by Iblis
06-18-2006 12:08 AM


not misunderstanding "observe" here
I didn't get this from Wiki articles, but point these things out from those articles for the benefit of evos here.
Furthermore, I think you are focussing on the technical difficulties with building quantum computers to somehow reject 80 plus years of development of quantum theory and hard experiments. It is to be expected to be a challenge to build quantum computers, but one of the reasons they are trying is that current quantum theory suggests it is indeed possible. The very act of trying to do this, based on theory, shows indeed that you are wrong about what previous data from experiments have shown.
Moreover, it is simply too early in the process to claim technical difficulties with developing quantum computers are due to faults within the theory......in fact, it is way too early for that conclusion to even be mildly credible, and yet you present it as fact.
Edit to add you also make a common fallacy of claiming that somehow there is a misunderstanding of actual experiments with photons as wave or particle-like due to not "really knowing" the math. That's hogwash and shows a major misunderstanding of the real-world nature of these experiments. The experiments are not about math. math may be used to describe the experiments and make predictions, but they are an actual, real-world process, and to suggest otherwise is a stupendous error.
Edited by randman, : No reason given.
Edited by randman, : No reason given.
Edited by randman, : No reason given.

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randman 
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Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 44 of 246 (322781)
06-18-2006 12:45 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by Iblis
06-18-2006 12:08 AM


more on delayed-choice experiments
At least three "delayed choice" experiments, which test what happens if the experimenter does not choose until the light is moving through the apparatus, have been done. Alley reported on one conducted with his student Oleg G. Jakubowicz. A group from the University of Munich and the Max Planck Institute for Quantum Optics in Garching, West Germany -- T. Hellmuth, Arthur G. Zajonc and Herbert Walter--did the other two.
....
So far, all three of these experiments support the conventional quantum wisdom that whether you make the choice before or after the event occurs, the effect of the choice is the same.
Questia
These experiments can be understood with or without the math.
Edited by randman, : fix quotation

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randman 
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Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 46 of 246 (322793)
06-18-2006 3:01 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by Iblis
06-18-2006 2:24 AM


Re: more on delayed-choice experiments
The "choice" referred to in the article is the mirror popping up.
No kidding Iblis. Gee....? Have I suggested anywhere at all here on this thread anything other than that?
The tricky part is that the order of events is such that the photon is generated BEFORE the mirror is in place.
Yea, and so the choice or observation is AFTER the effect and so affects the photon before measurement, right?
Btw, your descriptions of what scientists can and are doing with entangled photons is considerably different than what is reported.
To demonstrate open-destination teleportation, Pan and co-workers first teleported the unknown quantum state of a single photon onto a superposition of three photons. They were then able to read out this teleported state at any one of the three photons by performing a measurement on the other two photons.
Home – Physics World
By using a filter to reduce the intensity of the photons that are going to be teleported the researchers were able to significantly reduce the number of spurious detection events. The Vienna team could be 97% certain that the state had been teleported to photon 3 without actually having to detect it. Such a high accuracy means that the teleported photons could be used in “quantum repeaters” for long distance communication. The team now hopes to combine these results with a technique known as “entanglement purification” to further develop quantum communication over long distances.
Home – Physics World
Two macroscopic objects have been 'entangled' for the first time. Eugene Polzik and colleagues at the University of Aarhus in Denmark entangled two samples of caesium atoms, each containing about 1012 atoms, for half a millisecond - a long time by quantum standards. This demonstration could form the basis of new forms of 'quantum teleportation' and quantum computers (B Julsgaard et al 2001 Nature 413 400).
Home – Physics World
Edited by randman, : No reason given.
Edited by randman, : To correct mistating a setence.

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 6367
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Message 47 of 246 (322800)
06-18-2006 3:51 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by Iblis
06-18-2006 2:24 AM


2nd response
Wheeler's delayed-choice experiment is a
variation on the classic (but not classical) two-slit experiment, which demonstrates the schizophrenic nature of quantum phenomena. When electrons are aimed at a barrier containing two slits, the electrons act like waves; they go through both slits at once and form what is called an interference pattern, created by the overlapping of the waves, when they strike a detector on the far side of the barrier. If the physicist closes off one slit at a time, however, the electrons pass through the open slit like simple particles and the interference pattern disappears. In the
delayed-choice experiment, the experimenter decides whether to leave both slits open or to close one off _after the electrons have already passed through the barrier_--with the same results. The electrons seem to know in advance how the physicist will choose to observe them.
http://suif.stanford.edu/~jeffop/WWW/wheeler.txt
What is the reason that "electrons seem to know in advance" what the choice will be? Isn't it that the delayed-choice demonstrably affects the path prior to the choice? Isn't that what is meant by "delayed"?
Clearly then, we see causality occuring from an event affecting the photon's path before the event. The article gets into some very interesting stuff about the observer, by the way, but what I am focussing on is the fact we see the delayed-choice affecting the photon before the choice takes place.
As a sidenote, I have always wondered considering relativity, why the idea is not advanced that photons travelling at the speed of light are not entangled with themselves at all points in time anyway and so, of course, we would see these results due to that, but that doesn't seem to popular idea (I am assuming for some obvious reason).
Edited by randman, : No reason given.

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 6367
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Message 49 of 246 (322803)
06-18-2006 4:09 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by cavediver
06-18-2006 4:07 AM


Re: more on delayed-choice experiments
another post devoid of content

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 52 of 246 (322806)
06-18-2006 4:17 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by cavediver
06-18-2006 4:11 AM


nothing, eh?
So you can't just admit you don't know?
And it does indeed have a lot to do with what we are talking about because entanglement plays a key role in the process.

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 54 of 246 (322808)
06-18-2006 4:26 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by cavediver
06-18-2006 4:21 AM


Re: Yes it's possible
Yes, similar ideas have been discussed, researched, and developed into whole bodies of work long ago, of which I played but a small part. None of it supports ANY of your fanciful claims.
Uh huh. So we are getting around to the stage where you start admitting to details, but then assert somehow they don't support my claims, which in this case are merely the claims of science based on hard experiments.
How soon before you just clock off without ever offering one paper, or even a quote "from a dubious web-site" or some explanation in your own words?

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 56 of 246 (322811)
06-18-2006 4:50 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by Iblis
06-18-2006 2:24 AM


Re: more on delayed-choice experiments
No, you still aren't getting it at all; and yes the reduction of the math to English is partly to blame.
The experiments are not conducted in math but with real apparatus.
The delayed-choice experiments and others involving variations of the 2-slit apparatus are not dependent on understanding math to understand the results of the experiments. The observed data is either an interference pattern or not, or something else observed that is a physical reality. So talking about what occurs in English as oppossed to math is perfectly reasonable and acceptable to discuss how the apparatus is set up and what results are yielded. To suggest otherwise, as you and cavediver have, is quite absurd, as is the idea that quoting a web-site to describe the experiments is somehow wrong.
It's not so complicated. The photons are somehow affected before the event that affects them occurs. Here is one person's description of this.
But then Chiao and his colleagues ran the same experiment with polarising filters in front of each of the two slits. Any photon going one way would become "labelled" with left-handed circular polarization, while any photon going through the other slit is labelled with right-handed circular polarization. In this version of the experiment, it is possible in principle to tell which slit any particular photon arriving at the second screen went through. Sure enough, the interference pattern vanishes -- even though nobody ever actually looks to see which photon went through which slit.
Now comes the new trick -- the eraser. A third polarising filter is placed between the two slits and the second screen, to scramble up (or erase) the information about which photon went through which hole. Now, once again, it is impossible to tell which path any particular photon arriving at the second screen took through the experiment. And, sure enough, the interference pattern reappears!
The strange thing is that interference depends on "single photons" going through both slits "at once", but undetected. So how does a single photon arriving at the first screen know how it ought to behave in order to match the presence or absence of the erasing filter on the other side of the slits?
Quantum mysteries
You are welcome to describe the process in English as well and show what you think is occurring.

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randman 
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Posts: 6367
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Message 57 of 246 (322812)
06-18-2006 4:53 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by cavediver
06-18-2006 4:48 AM


Re: Yes it's possible
Why don't you consider that bare assertions don't cut it, and that here you are suppossed to substantiate your claims, not present a resume as an argument, or is that too complicated a concept...?
You might start off describing what does occur, in English with these experiments, and how you think the descriptions of the vast majority of people I have read, including the experimenters themselves, are somehow totally wrong.
Edited by randman, : No reason given.

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randman 
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Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 60 of 246 (322816)
06-18-2006 5:25 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by cavediver
06-18-2006 5:16 AM


Re: Yes it's possible
Actually, I think the problem is that, in fact, you guys are inserting the classical paradigm into a straightforward observation. There is a real process that goes on here, with real apparatus, and as such the process can be described in English. Imo, you are not engaging that in this thread.
There is a wave-function that evolves deterministically, based upon the constraints set up by the apparatus. Simple as that. There is no individual particle that can "know" something.
Agreed....to a certain extent. I and I believe most people recognize that the phrase the photon "knowing" is a mere description of a physical process, but what are they describing?
They are describing the fact the photon appears to react to an event that has not yet occurred, that the wave function "evolves" according to the apparatus in a manner that appears as if the wave function would "know" in advance what is going to happen.
Now, of course, the photon doesn't "know", but the most straightforward observation is that the wave function reacts holistically to an event such that it is affected, from our vantage point, prior to the event itsef.

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 62 of 246 (322818)
06-18-2006 5:38 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by cavediver
06-18-2006 5:22 AM


Re: Yes it's possible
BTW, if you hadn't noticed, this thread is all about YOUR assertions
Ok, so let's look at some descriptions of the process, and though I have read or plodded through papers by groups such as Chaio's and Zellinger's stuff and others, I think presenting less technical descriptions to describe the events that occur in these experiments is perfectly appropiate and can help others follow along. So here is material from a college professor and his course to his students.
First, let me point out that your comment on the deterministic nature of the apparatus is deceptive if you are suggesting the polarization is causing the flip-flop so to speak of the interference patterns.
Note to reader: the site has soem graphics not contained here that can help.
The presence of the two quarter wave plates creates the possibility for an observer to gain which-way information about photon s. When which-way information is available, the interference behavior disappears. It is not necessary to actually measure the polarization of p and figure out what slit s passed through. Once the quarter wave plates are there, the s photons are marked, so to speak.
The coincidence counts were tallied at each detector location, as before, and it was found that indeed the interference pattern was gone.
In case you might be suspicious of the quarter wave plates, it is worth noting that given a beam of light incident on a double slit, changing the polarization of the light has no effect whatsoever on the interference pattern. The pattern will remain the same for an x polarized beam, a y polarized beam, a left or a right circularly polarized beam.
It is peculiar then, that the presence of the quarter wave plates causes the s photons to so drastically change their behavior. One can't help but ask, how do these photons know that we could know which slit they went through?
Quantum Erasure
Increasing the strangeness of this scenario, the next step is to bring back the interference without doing anything to the s beam. A polarizer is placed in the p beam, oriented so that it will pass light that is a combination of x and y. It is no longer possible to determine with certainty the polarization of s before the quarter wave plates and therefore we cannot know which slit an s photon has passed through. The s photons are no longer marked. The potential to gain which-way information has been erased.
The coincidence measurements were repeated with the polarizer in place. It can be seen from the data that the interference pattern is back.
How does photon s know that we put the polarizer there?
http://grad.physics.sunysb.edu/~amarch/
We can go back and forth all day long, but suffice to say, it's not that all these sources stating the exact same thing as far as occuring in these experiments are wrong, and somehow you are right, cavediver.
There are different ways to explain what is observed, and you are welcome to explain them here, but the bottom line is the reason the misleading language of how do "photons" know what is going to happen is because they are describing a process where the reaction in others, to whether the potential to know something has occurred.

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