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Author Topic:   the underlying assumptions rig the debate
randman 
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Message 124 of 246 (323066)
06-18-2006 10:56 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by jar
06-18-2006 9:26 PM


Re: still no substance from you here
I've read an interview of Wheeler where he essentially says the same thing but with different words. I will see if I can find it, but the quote is consistent with his stated opinions.
According to quantum theory, measurements can influence what happens.
...
Stronger than the anthropic principle is what I might call the participatory principle. According to it we could not even imagine a universe that did not somewhere and for some stretch of time contain observers because the very building materials of the universe are these acts of observer-participancy. You wouldn't have the stuff out of which to build the universe otherwise. This participatory principle takes for its foundation the absolutely central point of the quantum:
No elementary phenomenon is a phenomenon until it is an observed (or registered) phenomenon.
Cosmic Search Vol. 1, No. 4 - FORUM: John A. Wheeler
I think it's pretty clear what Wheeler believes. He thinks acts of observer participancy create the universe as we know it. I am not so sure he isn't overstating things, but they are the logical conclusion of quantum experiments. Acts of observation in the present do appear to have a determinative effect or at least to coorelate to the formation of the past in some instances (Wheeler perhaps suggests all instances).
Edited by randman, : No reason given.

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randman 
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Message 125 of 246 (323073)
06-18-2006 11:11 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by Rob
06-18-2006 9:39 PM


take heed how you hear...
Rob, I wouldn't say I agree with all of it, but the basic discovery of quantum physics, if true, that somehow our questions do play a role in the answers given by even the physical universe fits very well with things Jesus taught. Take heed how you hear, for example, or consider the teachings on faith and on how an inward position within the believer can manifest a real world change outwardly.
I think QM begins to delve into what were formerly known as spiritual principles, and that the Bible teaches spiritual principles are woven into the fabric of material reality.

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randman 
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Message 126 of 246 (323076)
06-18-2006 11:29 PM


superluminal potentials still under debate
At the Cologne symposium [21] Mittelstaedt reviewed the arguments that had been put forward in recent years in order to show that non-local effects in quantum systems with EPR-like correlations can not be used for superluminal communications. He demonstrated that most of these arguments are based on circular proofs. For instance, a “locality principle” can not be used to exclude superluminal quantum signals and to justify quantum causality, since the locality principle itself is justified by either quantum causality or an equivalent “covariance postulate” [32]. In a similar vein, van Enk shows that the proof given by Westmoreland and Schumacher in [33] that superluminal signaling violates the quantum no-cloning theorem is in fact incorrect [34]. Hegerfeld uses the formalism of relativistic quantum mechanics to show that the wave function of a free particle initially in a finite volume instantaneously spreads to infinity and, more importantly, that transition probabilities in widely separated systems may also become nonzero instantaneously [35]. His results hold under amazingly few assumptions (Hilbert spaceframework and positivity of the energy). Hegerfeld observes that, in order to retain Einstein causality, a mechanism such as “clouds of virtual particles or vacuum fluctuations” would be needed.
http://www.ornl.gov/~webworks/cpr/pres/107480_.pdf
Contrary to some claims here, there are plenty of scientists that think meaningful transfer of information instantly and thus from our vantage point, superluminally, is entirely possible, and they are working to demonstrate that and arguably have via teleporation experiments.
Edited by randman, : No reason given.

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 129 of 246 (323086)
06-19-2006 12:37 AM
Reply to: Message 127 by nwr
06-18-2006 11:54 PM


Re: still no substance from you here
nwr, in typical fashion you ignore the reason for quoting Wheeler. Wheeler does speak admirably of Darwin while at the same time asserting the anthropomorphic principle and observer-participancy, which are things you assume only crackpots believe. I'll let the reader judge between your intellect and Wheeler's as far as that is concerned. The fact you fail to recognize the implications of observer-participancy speaks for itself.

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 130 of 246 (323087)
06-19-2006 12:40 AM
Reply to: Message 128 by nwr
06-18-2006 11:58 PM


Re: superluminal potentials still under debate
Hmmm....calling esteemed physicists and scientists working in the field crackpots......I could understand that if you actually providing some substantive analysis as critics of evolutionism do in their derision of evo scientists, but considering these guys' discoveries actually work their way into applied technology such as your computer chip, I think your derision is unwarranted.

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randman 
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Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 133 of 246 (323092)
06-19-2006 1:15 AM
Reply to: Message 132 by nwr
06-19-2006 12:44 AM


superluminality is a topic of research
Superluminality is current topic of serious research such as with:
quantum tunneling and other areas
We presented the first direct time measurement confirming that the time delay in
tunneling can be superluminal, studying single photons traversing a dielectric mirror [6]. Since then, several microwave
experiments have confirmed that the effective group velocity of classical evanescent waves in various configurations
may be superluminal [41-43]. Also, recently a femtosecond laser experiment has confirmed our earlier findings of
superluminal tunneling in dielectric mirrors [44], using classical pulses.
System Unavailable
You can check out a list of superluminal papers at the Chaio group home page.
Page not found | UC Berkeley Physics
my prior link which you ignored that deals with this issue from the perspective of quantum teleportation.....let me add that I don't presume to understand all of he arguments, but can understand that there is an argument, and a topic of considerable research. Perhaps teleporting instantly properties or the information for part of a song (as I beleive was done for a Mozart piece) should not be considered scientifically a transfer of information, or perhaps it is merely the unwillingness to overturn an old paradigm related with GR, but from a layman's perspective, it is the same thing. You can from a human perspective transfer information superluminally. Additionally, and you probably scoff at this, but forms of extra-sensory perception are often superluminal. Ever talked with someone that felt the instant a beloved one got in trouble or died and it was confirmed later....that is certainly a subjective example, but it is something that occurs nonetheless.
A conference on superluminal velocities took place in June 1998 in Cologne [21]. Theoretical and
experimental contributions to this topic focused primarily on evanescent mode propagation and on
superluminal quantum phenomena. The issues of causality, superluminality, and relativity were also
examined. In the area of electromagnetic propagation, two exciting developments were addressed. Nimtz
reported on experimental measurements of superluminal velocities achieved with frequency band-limited
signals carried by evanescent modes [22]. Specifically, he timed a microwave pulse crossing an
evanescent barrier (e.g., undersized waveguides, or periodic dielectric heterostructures) at 4.7c. He
demonstrated that, as consequence of the frequency band limitation of information signals, and if all
mode components are evanescent, an actual signal might travel faster than the speed of light. Capelas de
Oliveira and Rodrigues introduced the intriguing theory of superluminal electromagnetic X-waves
(SEXW) defined as undistorted progressive waves solutions of the relativistic Maxwell equations [23].
They present simulations of finite aperture approximations to SEXW, illustrate the signaling mechanism,
and discuss supporting experimental evidence.
What are the key arguments put forward against the possibility of superluminal signaling? Chiao and
Steinberg analyze quantum tunneling experiments and tachyon-like excitations in laser media [24]. Even
though they find the evidence conclusive that the tunneling process is superluminal, and that tachyon-like
excitations in a population-inverted medium at frequencies close to resonance give rise to superluminal
wave packets, they argue that such phenomena can not be used for superluminal information transfer. In
their view, the group velocity can not be identified as the signal velocity of special relativity, a role they
attribute solely to Sommerfeld’s front velocity. In that context, Aharonov, Reznik, and Stern have shown
that the unstable modes, which play an essential role in the superluminal group velocity of analytical
wave packets, are strongly suppressed in the quantum limit as they become incompatible with unitary
time evolution [25].
Let us now examine EPR-based superluminal schemes. Furuya et al analyze a paradigm proposed by
Garuccio, in which one of the photons of a polarization-entangled EPR pair is incident upon a Michelson
interferometer in which a phase-conjugation mirror (PCM) replaces one of the mirrors [26]. The sender
(located at the source site) can superluminally communicate with a receiver (located at the detector site),
based on the presence or absence of interferences at the detector. The scheme uses the PCM property that
a reflected photon has the same polarization as the incident photon (contrary to reflection by an ordinary
mirror), allowing to distinguish between circular and linear polarization. In a related context, Blaauboer et
al also proposed [27] a connection between optical phase conjugation and superluminal behavior. Furuya
et al prove that Garuccio’s scheme would fail if non coherent light is used, because then the
interferometer could not distinguish between unpolarized photons prepared by mixing linear polarization
states or by mixing circular polarization states. They admit, however, that their counterproof would not
apply to a generalized Garuccio approach, which would use coherent light states. Finally, in terms of
criticism, let us mention the recent article by Peres [28], where criteria that prevent superluminal
signaling are established. These criteria must be obeyed by various operators involved in classical
interventions on quantum systems localized in mutually spacelike regions.
What are the arguments in favor of superluminal information transfer? Gisin shows [29] that Weinberg’s
general framework [30] for introducing nonlinear corrections into quantum mechanics allows for arbitrary
fast communications. It is interesting to note that, in a recent book [31], Weinberg himself states: “I could
not find a way to extend the nonlinear version of quantum mechanics to theories based on Einstein’s
special theory of relativity ( . ) both N. Gisin in Geneva and my colleague Joseph Polchinsky at the
University of Texas independently pointed out that ( . ) the nonlinearities of the generalized theory could
be used to send signals instantaneously over large distances”.
At the Cologne symposium [21] Mittelstaedt reviewed the arguments that had been put forward in recent
years in order to show that non-local effects in quantum systems with EPR-like correlations can not be
used for superluminal communications. He demonstrated that most of these arguments are based on
circular proofs. For instance, a “locality principle” can not be used to exclude superluminal quantum
signals and to justify quantum causality, since the locality principle itself is justified by either quantum
causality or an equivalent “covariance postulate” [32]. In a similar vein, van Enk shows that the proof
given by Westmoreland and Schumacher in [33] that superluminal signaling violates the quantum nocloning
theorem is in fact incorrect [34]. Hegerfeld uses the formalism of relativistic quantum mechanics
to show that the wave function of a free particle initially in a finite volume instantaneously spreads to
infinity and, more importantly, that transition probabilities in widely separated systems may also become
nonzero instantaneously [35]. His results hold under amazingly few assumptions (Hilbert space
framework and positivity of the energy). Hegerfeld observes that, in order to retain Einstein causality, a
mechanism such as “clouds of virtual particles or vacuum fluctuations” would be needed. To conclude
this review, we note a recent suggestion of Mittelstaedt [36]. If the existence of superluminal signals is
assumed ab initio (viz. [22] and [35]), and consequently a new space-time metric (different from the
Minkowskian metric) is adopted, all the paradoxes and difficulties discussed above would immediately
disappear.
http://www.ornl.gov/~webworks/cpr/pres/107480_.pdf
comments by Anton Zeilinger
Transferring the properties of light particles over certain distances onto other light particles, with no time delay. The procedure is based on phenomena which exist only in the quantum world, and is known as "quantum teleportation."
This may be where you and I agree more than you realize. As far as I am concerned, if there is a way to instantly determine the information from another part of the galaxy or whereever, then that is superluminal from our vantage point, and so we should be able to use the properties of entanglement to eventually be able to effectively, from our vantage point, transfer information instantly.
Now, whether any transfer in terms of energy or whatever has taken place is often denied, though this is still a developing area for science, and hence the next comment by Zeilinger.
Theoretically yes. The effect has so far been proved across a distance of a hundred kilometres. The amazing thing is that there can be no exchange of information between the two particles. They react absolutely in synch, although they could could never know anything of each other's existence.
Note he adds later.
The spooky effect at a distance is a process outside time and space that even I can't really imagine. But I believe that quantum physics tells us something very profound about the world. And that is that the world is not the way it is independently of us. That the characteristics of the world are to a certain extent dependent on us.
Anton Zeilinger, Mathias Plüss, Regina Hügli: Spooky action and beyond (16/02/2006) - signandsight
So we really don't know how entanglement works except it does. He says it seems to involve something outside space and time, for example.
Edited by randman, : No reason given.

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 134 of 246 (323093)
06-19-2006 1:30 AM
Reply to: Message 132 by nwr
06-19-2006 12:44 AM


a little more reading for ya
Other scientists dispute Chiao's conclusions.
Several European teams have been experimenting with more intense photon sources and thicker barriers. Their results indicate that the tunneling time for a particle becomes "saturated" or reaches an upper limit. If a particle can "borrow" energy, quantum mechanics does not permit it to do so indefinitely.
Once the limit is reached, the particle will tunnel through the barrier in the same time, regardless of whether its thickness is two meters, two kilometers or 2,000 kilometers--if, of course, such an experiment could ever be carried out!
Last year, New Scientist reported the extraordinary findings of a German research team headed by Nimtz, who was attending a conference organized in Snowbird, Utah:
"Attending the meeting were some of the leading researchers in this field of faster-than-light quantum phenomena. To an astonished audience, Nimtz announced that his team in Cologne had not only measured superluminal speeds for their microwaves, but had actually sent a signal faster than light. The signal in question was Mozart's 40th Symphony....
"According to Nimtz, Mozart's 40th Symphony hopped across 12 centimeters of space at 4.7 times the speed of light. What's more, Nimtz actually had a recording to prove it. To his now bemused audience, he played a tape in which among the background hiss strains of Mozart could be heard. This was the 'signal' that had traveled faster than light."
A vigorous debate ensued as to whether or not a piece of music could be considered a signal. According to Einstein, a signal traveling faster than light would effectively be traveling back in time. The ability to send information back in time would violate the scientific conceptions of cause and effect: the results of an experiment could be influenced after it had happened!
Few scientists accept Nimtz's claim that a signal can be propagated faster than the speed of light. However, the experiments by Nimtz, Chiao and others point to the limitations of the existing theories of physics and add a further spur to the quest for a unified theory embracing quantum mechanics and the theory of general relativity.
Page Not Found - World Socialist Web Site
I think a piece of music, by the way, is information and considering it hopped along 4.7 times faster than the speed of light, it's just a matter of time before people start revising their view of what is possible in this area.
more links
In Italy, another group of physicists has also succeeded in breaking the light speed barrier. In a recently published paper, physicists at the Italian National Research Council described how they propagated microwaves at 25% above normal light speed. The group also speculates that it could prove possible to transmit information faster than light.
Page not found | Santiago
Edited by randman, : No reason given.

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randman 
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Posts: 6367
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Message 136 of 246 (323101)
06-19-2006 2:40 AM
Reply to: Message 135 by PaulK
06-19-2006 2:18 AM


Re: general reply to all
I have already explicitly stated that according to your sources if the path information is knowable the superposition is collapsed. Thus the photon is forced to follow a single path.
So you admit to these basic observations in these experiments? Good.
Your view requires that a path a photon takes can be changed, retroactively, even when the path information is knowable.
No, that is not what I have said, nor suggested, and at this point we are just discussing causality, right? We can get into more implications after we get that straight. Suffice to say, that in real world actions, a photon may potentially be knowable and become unknowable and back again.
As I keep having to repeat the only change available is the change from a superposition of states to a single state, a changee that can only be reversed by erasing the information that would allow us to know the collapsed state .
So you admit the past for the photon is determined by the potential for present knowledge and in these experiences by a present event?
Yes or no?
You need a change from a collapsed state to a different collapsed state,
No, you don't, at least not to illustrate the present affecting the past. It is true you need this to occur, but that occurs as a process as we shall see later in this post.
You can get a different result only if you eliminate the information that would let you know the first result.
You need to think more carefully about that. Clearly, there is an affect on past behaviour by present events, right?
You were claiming that the past is completely fluid.
Yes and no. I claimed there were present events that have small impacts on the past, and over time, very long periods of time, those small changes add up and can, as it were, evolve the past into different states, and I suspect even evolve the time-line and present itself as well, and perhaps even split it into more than one time-line.
erasers - or rather the need for them - are a big problem for you.
Not at all. Quantum erasers help my case. You are making an assertion here but not backing it up.
So is the idea that the knowability of a photon's path - rather than actual observation - produces a collapse. Both of these make the past more difficult to change
Not really. You just haven't thought all this stuff out sufficiently. First off, we know a collapse is totally reversible, right? You claim, sure, but only if the information about the path the photon took is no longer decipherable, right?
But isn't the world such that this can be the case? In the examples with the polarizers, a photon takes a certain path more like a particle because the polarizers are set up such that we can tell what the photon did, but note that the second stage of the experiment set up a third polarizer scrambling that information, and the interference pattern reappeared. So it's quite possible that at one point, a photon could take a single route because at that point it is able to be determined what route it takes, but later down the road so to speak, the photon no longer and by no longer I mean even in it's past trajectory seen from the vantage point of the present, takes a single route, but takes all possible routes like a wave because the ability to know which way the photon went is no longer there.
So the quantum eraser experiment shows how the past is indeed changing, sometimes collapsing into one discrete area, and then that collapse is reversed, and appears to propagate in superposition.
The next collapse then, well, who knows if it will be the same? There is absolutely no reason to assume the collapse into one path will be the same path, and by this process, I have demonstrated here how indeed the past changes, or you could say is indeterminate by nature and non-static.
Edited by randman, : No reason given.

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 145 of 246 (323265)
06-19-2006 1:00 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by Larni
06-19-2006 9:27 AM


Re: Event horizon
Then is it fair to claim the Bible is a record of the system change?
A "record" is sort of strong language. I would say the Bible suggests or even states such a thing, but the principal purpose of the Bible is not to lay out scientific theories. Calling it a record of system change seems to suggest that would be it's purpose, and that's not the case.
I think the Bible gives clues or more than just clues at times on how God did things (such as the use of faith to create), but this can get us into the several new thread topics.

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randman 
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Message 146 of 246 (323268)
06-19-2006 1:12 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by PaulK
06-19-2006 3:04 AM


Re: general reply to all
PaulK, you are jumping ahead too much. The example of interpreting the scripture to mean death did not exist is meant to be an example, but I will argue it as I think it's one of the valid interpretations.
First, I have shown one way that a superposition can exist; then not exist but instead a collapsed state, and then a superposition exists again, and that the quantum eraser shows that. Now, of course, we are dealing with a book and story, that if we are to accept it, contains God Almighty directly intevening and working, and so you really cannot assess the story's events ruling out God. What we can do is to assess current science and consider if there are clues in QM that can show how such somewhat instantenous changes might occur, and if they did occur, would they affect the past as well as the present.
I think there is some sense you may be missing things here. When Adam was alive and had not sinned, to say the universe then or now was fully in a collapsed state is probably wrong. The universe is today is not in fully collapsed state, and that's probably not the best way to describe the wave-function anyway, but we will keep doing so. The wave-function manifests in discrete form depending apparantly on what can be known about it.
With the introduction of the knowledge of good and evil, there would be for every new situation a new way to "know" something about it. One could view it more clearly from a moral perspective. This gets sort of deep and there is the issue that I believe they knew to eat the fruit was wrong, but regardless there are 2 salient points here.
1. The change in the waveform reacts based on whether something can be known about it.
2. With the eating of the knowledge of good and evil, a new level and intimacy of knowledge was obtained, and so with that new knowledge, there was something new that could be asked so to speak of everything, and that includes the past.

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 147 of 246 (323270)
06-19-2006 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by cavediver
06-19-2006 6:53 AM


Re: still no substance from you here
Does the waveform span more than one segment of time simultaneously in your view?

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randman 
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Posts: 6367
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Message 149 of 246 (323273)
06-19-2006 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by cavediver
06-19-2006 6:39 AM


Re: superluminality is a topic of research
Cavediver, so what? Obviously including the comments that others disagree with Chaio on that point meant that, in my own sources, I readily acknowledged that although Chaio believes superluminality is real in certain contexts, he is not ready to accept superluminal transfer of information.
Imo though, it's a matter of time. I think it may be more a matter of manipulation, and people like you will say that no information was transfered, just that the signals transferred are interpreted on the other end by people to develop that information, but it's gonna happen. Even now, one reason people say superluminal communication does not occur is that they say the time to interpret the data and call to confirm it takes too long.....as you can see though, something is "communicated" from a human perspective instantly.
Let me put it this way. It 2 entangled particles are some distance apart, and you want to know the spin of one, you can do a test, right, on the particle present with you, and wholla, you know instantly the information of the other. You may insist, and frankly I don't care if you do, that no information was "transferred", but it's somewhat semantics because you can know the state of the other item faster than it could be sent from that item to you.
I think this process can be developed via quantum computers to eventually be able to transfer whatever "state" something else is in from far away, and construct that state to reveal information instantly. You can say no transfer occurred, but so what? If the entangled particles are non-local, then the system exists in more than one place at once, and we should be able to from a human perspective transfer information superluminally due to the multi-positions of an entangled system.

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randman 
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Message 150 of 246 (323280)
06-19-2006 1:36 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by Percy
06-19-2006 1:21 PM


Re: superluminal potentials still under debate
Percy, many scientists like Feynman just said things like no one understands how it works, that it is too weird, etc,....There are a lot of scientists, true, but how many scientists are actually conducting experiments to test basic concepts in QM?
Not so many. One of them Zeilinger made the comment that "most physicists are extremely naive. They believe in real waves or particles." I think it's important to look at the experiments themselves and consider the statements of the scientists conducting them, and the group most dedicated to these issues.
I also think you don't realize how much in the mainstream some of the ideas I am discussing are. There is a reason book after book, article after article, web-sites by professors, etc, etc,...use language that the photon "seems to know" ahead of time, and then say no one knows for sure how this works. They don't really believe the photon knows anything, or most don't, but they don't want to word it differently and state a later action determines ahead of time the action of the photon, but that's what they are saying appears to occur. That is mainstream science.
Are they willing to say this violates causality? Some are like Wheeler, but most are just content to state like Feynman, that no one really understands it. What I would like some acknowledgement of though is that the experiments do indeed appear to show exactly what I am saying, that scientists do acknowledge that, and if you want me to admit that just a few consider the implications related to causality, fine, but the bottom line is QM and SR don't yet mix. They are not in full agreement; hence the search for the theory of everything.
Moreover, on the issue of entangelment and what occurs there, that is still an unknown. It appears to some that a system can exist, or part of it, apart from normal space and time. There is a reason Einstein called it "spooky action-at-distance" which from our vantage point is superluminal. The way that is gotten around is to say the seeming different particles are one system, but then you have a system that acts as one without any observable connections despite being separated by space. You tell me, but seems to me if the space barrier is being violated (it works and stays regardless of distance), then time is being violated as well since space and time are tied together.

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randman 
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Message 151 of 246 (323286)
06-19-2006 1:48 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by cavediver
06-19-2006 6:33 AM


Re: for the lurkers wanting to get a handle on this
. But NOTHING ACTUALLY CHANGES. Wheeler does not believe the wave-function is changed. You seem to be confusing "wave" with "wave-function"... these are very different.
This is supports the points I am making here and have made before. The wave-function is the thing itself, and I can agree does not change. What changes is the discrete form that is manifested materially in our reference frame. That's one reason I have stated elsewhere that an information-state is the fundamental state with what we have thought of as "physical" or the discrete form being the derived, secondary state. Imo, this reverses the traditional materialist approach of science in that no longer is the information a description of something physical, but the discrete form is actually a by-product of the design-state, the wave-function.
Moreover, you admit that the wave-funtion can and does occupy at a minimum different locations instantly via entanglement, right? In other words, distance is not an issue. The system stays as one even over long distances with no observable connections, right?
Why if this space barrier is superceded, do you not think the time barrier can be superceded as well? Isn't time and space interconnected so we have a 4-D universe, and doesn't the wave-function work in 4-D?
NO. Wheeler said Observership. This can be by anything. It is interaction with other wave-functions. We call this decoherence. You do not need a conscious observer to create de-coherence (what you would call collapse).
So? How is any different at all if the observer is the conscious observer or something else in terms of this discussion?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by cavediver, posted 06-19-2006 6:33 AM cavediver has not replied

  
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 153 of 246 (323298)
06-19-2006 2:01 PM
Reply to: Message 152 by PaulK
06-19-2006 1:50 PM


Re: general reply to all
PaulK, you are just not considering all the factors here. First, let me reiterate that I showed and you have not responded to how in the quantum eraser experiment, that as "time progresses" or as a photon goes through it's trajectory, that it can change. It can be in superposition, to a single path, back to superposition, and back again to an entirely new path and everyone one of these changes involves a change, as it were, backwards in time from our vantage point.
Now, what is really happening according to some is that all possible states always exist all the time, but what we see as a real wave or particle is just one state. So the questions we ask seem to determine the past, but they actually just reveal one of the possible past routes or behaviour and all the others are still there, and so that is how you can get around seeming backwards causality.
But if that is the case, it really doesn't matter from our perspective. The past we know does not necessarily stay the same from our perspective. That has been shown conclusively from the quantum eraser experiment. Your claim that the net change is 0 is wrong because you assume in the real world this process will be limited as in the lab, and that the same answer will be generated as to what path the photon took when in reality if the observation is different, the answer will be as well.
So somehow what can be known about something affects it's the discrete form it takes, and this discrete form is generally what people think of as the physical world.
Well, with the introduction of the knowledge and good and evil to the observers, Adam and Eve, their questions and so what can be made known would change, and so one would expect everything to change.
But regardless of the Bible story, the OP point stands. The past is not determined. It does change, and that has been shown in QM experiments. You yourself admit that it changes from an indetermined state to a determined state, but I have shown that even a determined state (a collapsed state) can be changed and you admit that too.
You said that this only happens with a change of what can be known, and I have shown how that circumstances can change what can be known, and so every time there is a change of what can be known, the past changes.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by PaulK, posted 06-19-2006 1:50 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 157 by PaulK, posted 06-19-2006 2:26 PM randman has replied

  
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