What "kind" are penguins?

I have a question about the animals of the pre-Flood world and by extension those on the ark.Were there only kinds until after the Flood or were there both original kinds and members of a kind before the flood and so potentially at least on the ark.In case I'm not explaining it very well (and I'm not sure I am ) let's take the example of the raven and the dove that we know were both on the ark.If there were only kinds pre-Flood then raven and dove must be different kinds. If, however, there were both kinds and members of kinds then maybe on the ark there were ravens and doves and the 'ancestral' bird kind (from which they had both evolved), and after the flood receded all the modern birds except raven and dove hyper-evolved from the ancestral bird kind pair (or is it seven?).Is there a standard YEC view on this? If not what's you view?Edited by MangyTiger, : Added '(from which they had both evolved)'.

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Hi Nuggin - I hope you don't mind if us non-Biblical Literalists (BLs) put in our two cents worth as well as Faith and the other BLs. Ok, I would say the very first classification you have to make is whether the animal is an original kind or a member of a kind^[1].Of course this is a moot point if all the orignal kinds have gone extinct, but if they haven't then if you can't differentiate between orginal and member you're pretty much screwed in terms of trying to do any clasification.^[1]Definitions:

• Original kind is a pre-Fall (note Fall, not Flood) animal which has survived to the present day
• Member of a kind is an animal which has speciated or evolved from an original kind since the Fall

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Hi Faith.Could you take a look at my Message 9 and see if the definfitions I've used seem appropriate to use and if not suggest corrections (this is your are of expertise not mine, so I'm always open to correction ).In addition do you have any idea if there are any original kinds still alive today or is everything post-Fall speciated descendants?

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That was pretty much where I was hoping to go with this in discussions with Faith.In subsequent messages she has said that my definitions are good and in her opinion it is unlikely that any original kinds survived even as long as the Flood.This means the original kind vs. member of kind distinction is probably moot as far as living animals are concerned.It is - presumably - still an issue as far as fossils are concerned but I have absolutely no idea how you'd go about deciding whether a given fossil is an original kind or a member. I'd even venture a guess that it isn't possible - maybe Faith has some ideas.Ah - just thought The other place where it might be of interest is in ancient DNA. All we have to do is work out how "greater genetic potential" manifests itself in the genome and we can at least work out if the ancient DNA is closer to an original kind than a modern animal.

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This is one of those rare instances when I think Faith has got it right.Although it isn't explicitly stated I think it is pretty clear from Nuggin's Message 1 (shown below) that he is trying to investigate the (Biblical Literalist) Creationist - i.e. YEC - Classification concepts and as such in this thread we should at least try to use the YEC asssumptions.Maybe Nuggin can confirm or deny this was his intent.

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