EvC Forum: What "kind" are penguins?

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Topic: What "kind" are penguins?

arachnophilia

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Message 32 of 83 (329053)
07-05-2006 6:25 PM

Reply to: Message 7 by Coragyps
07-04-2006 7:51 PM

Re: pfft... penguins...

This passage certainly suggests that, at least by Moses's time, there were more than one Kind of hawk, of raven, of kite, and of heron. Also, Owl appears to be distinct from Little Owl or Great Owl, as are Eagle and Gier Eagle.

in the last "kind" thread, i analyzed a few of the biblical kinds, and found it to be loosely and colloquially equivalent to family. though looking at your reference, mine was hardly exhaustive in the bird area. perhaps i will co-op the bird part, and finish it here. but i doubt that's neccessary.

Penguins aren't mentioned, but is it possible that they are a Fowl That Creeps, Going Upon All Four? (sounds like reading Winnie the Pooh, doesn't it?) I sure can't think of any other birds that could even get nominated for that Kind/those Kinds - kiwis and ostriches go strictly on All Twos to the best of my knowledge. Auks and puffins, maybe....

i suspect that "going on all fours" is an idiom for being flightless. though it's really, really hard to tell -- locusts go on all fours, too.

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	Message 7 by Coragyps, posted 07-04-2006 7:51 PM		Coragyps has not replied

arachnophilia

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Posts: 9069

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Message 39 of 83 (329075)
07-05-2006 8:38 PM

Reply to: Message 38 by Faith
07-05-2006 8:36 PM

Re: Forget Pre-Flood / Post-Flood

What the Bible says is fact.

but we can't actually determine what the bible means when it says something?

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	Message 38 by Faith, posted 07-05-2006 8:36 PM		Faith has replied

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	Message 40 by Faith, posted 07-05-2006 8:43 PM		arachnophilia has replied

arachnophilia

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Posts: 9069

From: god's waiting room

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Message 47 of 83 (329088)
07-05-2006 9:11 PM

Reply to: Message 40 by Faith
07-05-2006 8:43 PM

Re: Forget Pre-Flood / Post-Flood

Well YECs have no problem determining what the Bible means in Genesis.

evidently, they do.

Perhaps the only way we are going to be able to deal with this incessant debate about basic things is to give a list of assumptions for a particular thread that are to be unquestioned for that thread. The YEC assumptions about Genesis should be that for this thread, it seems to me, and the debate about them should be taken elsewhere. However I didn't start the thread so somebody else can call the assumptions. I'm not into debating them here however. I'm trying to answer the questions from the YEC point of view.

yes, that's fine. you see genesis as fact. good.

but if you can't determine the meanings of the words it's written with -- or what god created on the 5th and 6th day, it's hard to claim that you believe it as fact. again, this a problem with vaguery not your belief.

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arachnophilia

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Posts: 9069

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Message 55 of 83 (329178)
07-06-2006 1:48 AM

Reply to: Message 54 by Nuggin
07-06-2006 1:12 AM

Re: Forget Pre-Flood / Post-Flood

Or even better, how many different "kinds" of animals were there?

how about this, an estimate of the order of magnitude of how many kinds there were on the ark, or at creation?

are we talking <10? 10-100? 100-1,000? 1,000-10,000?

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	Message 54 by Nuggin, posted 07-06-2006 1:12 AM		Nuggin has not replied

arachnophilia

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Posts: 9069

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Message 57 of 83 (329189)
07-06-2006 2:33 AM

Reply to: Message 56 by Faith
07-06-2006 2:31 AM

Re: Identifying the kinds is NOT possible! Sorry.

It SEEMS to me that there had to be a Cat Kind, and a Dog Kind and a Bear Kind and an Elephant Kind for instance,

so, like i previously suggested, colloquially equivalent to family, in linnean taxonomy?

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	Message 56 by Faith, posted 07-06-2006 2:31 AM		Faith has replied

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	Message 58 by Faith, posted 07-06-2006 3:27 AM		arachnophilia has replied

arachnophilia

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Posts: 9069

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Message 70 of 83 (329440)
07-06-2006 4:46 PM

Reply to: Message 58 by Faith
07-06-2006 3:27 AM

Re: Identifying the kinds is NOT possible! Sorry.

Maybe some, maybe a few, maybe not all, WHO KNOWS??

i'm just talking about how a word is used in the bible. so for instance, ravens are a kind, and doves are a kind, hawks are a kind, and nighthawks are a kind. but birds are not a kind -- it's a group of kinds.

though really, what i think it means is *drumroll* "kind" as in "sort" or "variety" or "that particular group" and there is no specific definition that you can equate to linnean taxonomy, other than another general term, like "taxon" or "clade."

in other words, it's not meant to be specific -- the NAME of the kind is specific, the word "kind" is not.

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	Message 78 by Brad McFall, posted 07-07-2006 1:46 PM	arachnophilia has not replied

arachnophilia

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Posts: 9069

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Message 72 of 83 (329453)
07-06-2006 5:30 PM

Reply to: Message 71 by ringo
07-06-2006 5:27 PM

Re: Identifying the kinds is NOT possible! Sorry.

The "kind" concept - and its companion hyper-evolution - were made up by YECs when it became obvious that all animal species would not fit on the ark. It is no more Biblical than it is scientific.

exactly.

But since bats are birds, it is equally possible that penguins are fish.

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