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Author | Topic: A Theological Defense of "Gap Theory" | |||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
By taking the age of each father at the birth of his son, and adding the "six days" of creation, Young Earth Creationists thereby arrive at an age for the earth, concluding that the Earth is only 6,000 - 7,000 years old. It's a theory, an interpretation based on assumptions. IIRC it involves much more than just addition to reach an assumed age of the earth, as it also involves interpretations of different lengths of lives, and other aspects that make such an interpretation highly questionable. Any relationship between events in the bible and recorded historical events is also open to interpretation as there are no real dates given - reference to events at best are tied to the reign of various rulers and reference to other events (non-biblical historical events) are equally vague - making any attempt to set biblical events into historical ones also a matter of interpretation and assumption. Take the life of Christ as an example: what are the dates of the birth and death? What events during the life can be related to known historical events? And this was (supposedly) recorded shortly after that period. It seems to me that if you can't even nail down these events for the most iconic person, that deriving any other dating from this source is rather questionable at best, with uncertainty increasing the further you go back in time. It would appear that the recording of actual dates of events was not an important {criteria\element} of the record keeping. The logical conclusion is that the YEC theory (of the age and timing of events) is not consistent with the facts, whether those facts involve the geological age of the earth, or the correlation to known historical events, or (more importantly) their lack of evidence at the times where there should be evidence if the YEC theory were true. The logical conclusion is that the YEC theory is falsified. Comparing the (various) GAP (and other) theor(y\ies) to the YEC theory is (therefore) a false comparison. You need to compare them to their ability to predict events, and the records of events, properly in the time scale of things that are known. If they can't do that, then you need to chuck them out and get new ones. Or chuck the whole concept of developing dates from a record that pays scant at best attention to dates: is any {age\dating} theory really necessary? Events can be relative, creating a linear progression, but the actual dates of those events is unimportant to the progression. This isn't science, it's logic. This message has been edited by RAZD, 02*14*2006 08:08 AM we are limited in our ability to understand by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Much historical timeline information is built upon assumptions, you are correct. This is true for the young-earth creationist, the old-earth creationist and the evolutionist. The question is which assumptions have to ignore less evidence.
The facts are that none of us were there to see the events take place. This is a strawman argument. We were talking about events recorded by people who supposedly were there. Further, I wasn't there for the birth of my mother and father, but I can be pretty sure that these events happened -- some inferences are more logical than others.
The YEC position is more defensible with real science and logic than are the Gap and evolutionary paradigms, in my opinion. But that is a discussion for another topic. Good. You can take this to the Age Correlations and an Old Earth thread:http://EvC Forum: Age Correlations and an Old Earth: Version 1 No 3 (formerly Part III) Note this is in it's third incarnation, and to date not one creationist has been able to answer the basic question posed: how do you explain the correlations between all the age dating methods. Given that this thread lists dating methods that count annual layers to over 567,700 years, this completely refutes any YEC model unless you can explain, not just why each method is wrong, but why they have the same results for age and climate and other correlations -- why they are all wrong in exactly the same way in spite of being based on totally different systems of annual layers. So far there have been three basic kinds of responses from people: (1) Ignore the thread and hope it goes away while pretending they still have a valid argument (in spite of being blatantly falsified). This is dishonest. (2) Attempt to explain one or two systems, but fail to address all of them in any kind of valid approach. This is ignoring the issue. (3) Say that they don't know the answer, and don't have the scientific background to challenge the information presented. This is honest. Which are you? In any event, the upshot of any of these approaches is that they cannot answer the conclusion of an old earth that is logical and consistent and based on plentiful available evidence. The net result is that the YEC concept is falsified unless this information is refuted in such a way that explains the correlations. Enjoy. we are limited in our ability to understand by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
So,
Has Garret "let fthe building"? or is he just lying low for a while after being suspended. Answering one post on this thread after the suspension, he has had time to read, at least, the others. Garret, For the record, I take the failure of any answer to my post:http://EvC Forum: A Theological Defense of "Gap Theory" To be an "answer" of the first variety listed in my previous reply to you. You made the claim:
The YEC position is more defensible with real science and logic than are the Gap and evolutionary paradigms, in my opinion. But that is a discussion for another topic. I have presented a refutation to the concept that the YEC idea can be scientifically correct due to evidence of an old earth. It is time to acknowledge the challenge and to back up your claim. Enjoy. we are limited in our ability to understand by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Garret,
No, I've not yet joined Elvis....unfortunately I do have a day job..what a bummer. Thanks for the answer. Most of us do, but I also realize that the effort to reply to many {threads\posts\posters} can be daunting. Just wanted to be sure.
I did make that claim, and will provide my case as soon as I decide I want to discuss that topic. I can wait. Just be aware that I do consider the YEC concept to be falsified, hence invalid, until the question is answered on the Age Dating thread. Also be aware that the amount of evidence for a position is not of relevance if there is evidence that invalidates it. This means that before submitting evidence for you need to answer the evidence against. Enjoy. we are limited in our ability to understand by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Speaking as an observer ...
In my time as a christian I've come across almost every forseeble and many times unforseeble explanation and theory for almost all parts of the bible. From Genesis to Revelation, I've heard everything that can possibly be used to undermine belief in the Bible, if not in the existence of God. That would also be a standard non-christian experience as well, which leaves them with the impression that anything can be interpreted from the bible, with so many spectrums on so many different issues.
... this is a Theological defense of the Gap Theory. In other words, according to the bible can we prove that one possible interpretation of the Genisis account "The Gap Theoery" is plausible. It is not do discuss whether Genesis is a metaphor or not. We are taking for granted that the bible is "God's word" for all intents and purposes, ... Just to be clear you are setting the goal posts at: (1) the earth is old (conforms to all known scientific age dating methods and mechanisms (2) the bible is not metaphorical So the interpretation(s) in question need to match both conditions. (3) this does not exclude metaphorical viewpoints as being christian, just as not being strict fundamentalist literal bible interpretation christian. It certainly seems to me (as an observer) to be much more productive than to try to discredit every method for dating the earth with the correlations and massive amounts of evidence that go with them. For comparison purposes, one should also look at the interpretations that show the earth orbits the sun in an outer arm of one of many similar galaxies. Also, are there any "semi-fundamentalists"? -- ones who take the OT as metaphor and the NT as literal fact? Why would that not be a valid position? {this would fall under (3) above and so should be another topic according to your goalposts} Enjoy. Edited by RAZD, : added last {} parenthetical statement we are limited in our ability to understand by our ability to understand RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
my
aren't we defensive.
If you had started from the beginning you would have seen that we are not using scientific evidence in this thread, your arguments have to be based on biblical verses and interpretation. This does not prevent you from needing logical consistency. Of course having some relationship to reality might also be worthwhile for those who want to be considered ... rational. The question is how tenuous that relationship is eh? To review: Message 119RAZD writes: Just to be clear you are setting the goal posts at: (1) the earth is old (conforms to all known scientific age dating methods and mechanisms) (2) the bible is not metaphorical So the interpretation(s) in question need to match both conditions. These are really the only logical reasons you need an Old Earth Creationist (OEC) model to begin with -- otherwise stick with the YEC model (and all the inherent problems with reality involved there) or go with the metaphorical interpretations (at least for the OT - so we don't need to get into a discussion of the reality of jesus).
This discussion is based solely on the bible from the standpoint that the bible is the classicaly established authority on these issues as is underestood in mainstream christianity. How you rationalize your personal faith is your business -- everyone has their own approach ... it's part of what faith is about.
If you actually have something to contribute within the defined rules of this forum please feel free to do so. Care to point out where I am in violation? Funny, I did not ask for "scientific evidence" -- I just pointed out the logical goalposts you were setting up, or are you saying that "bible study" doesn't involve logic and some attempt at a passing relationship with reality ... ?
guidelines writes: 4. Points should be supported with evidence and/or reasoned argumentation. Address rebuttals through the introduction of additional evidence or by enlarging upon the argument. Do not repeat previous points without further elaboration. Avoid bare assertions. Looks to me like what I said still comes under "reasoned argumentation" and supporting your argument by enlarging upon it. So: do you agree that those are the goalposts or not? And more to the point -- that without them the discussion is as relevant as counting angels on a pinhead. We can discuss the relevance of the YEC position elsewhere, unless of course you are a YEC that is arguing against the OEC position, as then we are dealing with someone arguing about the rationality of a position from a position further removed from reality. Enjoy. we are limited in our ability to understand by our ability to understand RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Yes I am arguing from an OE standpoint Yes the bible is not metaphorical, Yes I take for granted the scientific evidence in geology as well as biology is correct as far as we can tell Using the bible, can I make a case for the GAP THEORY that can stand a biblical approach as well clearly satisfying many of the open questions that science put on the Genesis account? That's what I'll find out. Cool with me. I wish you luck in your journey. I'll go back to lurking the thread -- I find the concept intriguing in some ways, and have always been puzzled by those that claim that every second has been accounted for. Enjoy. we are limited in our ability to understand by our ability to understand RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share.
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